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The Patriots front 3 in the past 3 playoff seasons - Below average efforts

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  1. PATRIOTSFANINPA

    PATRIOTSFANINPA Rookie

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    You can say that Seymour was playing hurt or whatever but after checking on the past 3 seasons playoffs games it shows that our defensive line has been dominated by the opponents offensive line for most of the total of 7 playoff games from 2005 to 2007 or simply our front 3 has not been focused or played with more emotion during the 2 or 3 games per playoff year which definately killed our defense,put more pressure on the secondary and helped the result of early exits or a loss somewhere in the playoff games over the past 3 campaigns.

    Totals from the 2005-2006-2007 seasons with players Vince Wilfork,Ty Warren and Richard Seymour.......

    These are totals from all 3 starters...
    4 Sacks
    102 Tackles
    0 Interceptions
    0 Forced Fumbles

    Thats approximately 1.3 sacks per player for all 7 playoff games and only an average of approximately 4.4 tackles per game per front 3

    Those kind of stats from your most important part of the defense are not the type of stats in playoffs that produces championships too often,Very little pressure on the opposing QBs in 7 games.

    Sure these guys did fine against the run for most of the time but NO major pressure,sacks or forced throws for the opposing QB which is apparent with those numbers I have above.

    Without going back to the 2001,2003,2004 seasons our front 3 I am sure were much more dominating.

    Somewhere the team needs to address intensity in the playoffs for these front 3 - We know they have the talent but have been dissapearing like Houdini since the 2005 season
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2008
  2. nepatz11

    nepatz11 Rookie

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    Re: The Patriots front 3 in the past 3 playoff seasons - Horrible efforts

    Well I think you have to consider the role of a d-lineman in a 3-4 defense when analyzing those stats, however you are right they are dispappointing. I think Seymour in particular deserves scutiny. How does a 6'6" 320 lb beast of a man let a quarterback who looks like my paper boy escape his grasp on a third and 11 play in the final two minutes of the superbowl. I would have dug my hand into his flesh if I had to I would not have let go.
  3. PATRIOTSFANINPA

    PATRIOTSFANINPA Rookie

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    Re: The Patriots front 3 in the past 3 playoff seasons - Horrible efforts


    Homers on here say it was the injury that hurt Seymour over the past few seasons

    In reality Seymour got his big contract and has not been the same,Injury is just a way of excusing things a bit
    ,If he was too injured BB would probably have had him sit because Jarvis Green is a better player in the past 3 years at the position IMO.
  4. unoriginal

    unoriginal Rookie

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    How far out of line is that with their season averages? That's the real question.
  5. PATRIOTSFANINPA

    PATRIOTSFANINPA Rookie

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    Thats true,Thats why I smirk when the media says that the Patriots front 3 may be the best in the NFL...

    Are you Fu(king kidding me?
  6. mcgraw_wv

    mcgraw_wv Rookie

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    It was obvious we missed Colvins presense on pressure on the QB. He needs to get and stay healthy.
  7. PATRIOTSFANINPA

    PATRIOTSFANINPA Rookie

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    UMMMM I believe he is a free agent this year - No guarantee he is here in 2008
  8. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I dont think in our defensive scheme sacks by the down 3 is a good measurement. That is not their primary function. They are there to stop the run.
    I think the weakness is in our defense when ahead, or in 2 minute drills.
    In the last 3 playoff losses:
    1) Denver won the game in the last 2 minutes of the first half.
    2) Indy came back from a huge deficit by throwing a lot against a D trying to take away the pass.
    3) The Giants drove over 80 yards in a 2 minute drill. We could not stop a pass only offense at the most critical time.

    Where the blame lies is the question. I saw some but not enough pass rush. I saw some but not enough tight coverage from the corners. I was LBs and Safeties in the area but not covering tightly.
    The difference to me between 01,03,04 (esp 03-04) and since is that defensively when we needed a stop, we got it then, but lately do not. The close games we played this season had these trends in them, but we overcame them. Sunday and the last 2 other playoff defeats we did not.

    I thought it was very appropriate the way this season went that the Championship came down to our defense stopping the Giants from going most of the length of the field in the final 2+ minutes. This was the question mark that was left from 18-0. As it turned out we werent up to that challenge.
  9. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Colvin is signed through the 2008 season.

  10. mcgraw_wv

    mcgraw_wv Rookie

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    I thought we had one more year with Colvin. He isn't worth a big pay day if so, he's missed 2 whole years out of his contract, and his first year back from his first injury wasn't that strong.
  11. PATRIOTSFANINPA

    PATRIOTSFANINPA Rookie

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    Well the Giants front line stopped the run AND put pressure
    The Colts defense in 2006 stopped/slowed the run AND rushed Brady a lot
    The Broncos defense in 2005 also did similar and resulted the smae

    If you are a dominating line like our front 3 are supposed to and as good as some think you need to do BOTH stopping the run and pressuring the passer and especially in the crucial games,These 3 have not been able to do it consistently thus we are 0-3 in 3 years in a row - no denying that
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2008
  12. RhodyPatriot

    RhodyPatriot Rookie

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    Don't recall who it was on this board but they came up with the best nickname for Seymour = Big Siesta!! :rocker:
    Way to come up big on the last drive there BigSie!
    #93 is waaaaay overrated!!!!
  13. borg

    borg Rookie

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    The defensive philosophy this year was consistent with the past SB runs. Bend but don't break....avoid the big play....make the opposition string together 10 plays to score. Contrast this style with the attacking Defenses the Pats saw vs the NYG and Balt. My peave vs the GMen was how the DBacks never pressed their receivers. The prime example is the cushion Assante gave Tyre on his TD catch. The ball was on the 5 yet Assante was 5 yards off his guy. That was a TD long before the pass was thrown. The Pats may want to consider adding a CB that can play more physical on the LOS just as opponents have lined up in Moss' face.
  14. Harry Yelreh

    Harry Yelreh Rookie

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    I keep hearing about how the Giants totally outplayed NE or kicked NE's collective you-know-what, but the margin between the two was really extremely thin. One way a person could look at this game would be to say that, at the end, NE had a defensive back who dropped a ball that hit him in the hands while the Giants had a receiver that made a leaping grab to catch a ball up against his helmet. It's ridiculous, but that's football for you.

    Otherwise, I thought the defensive front played very well, just literally let it slip through their fingers on one play - Manning's inexplicable escape. Stuffed the run and put decent pressure on him for much of the game. How the heck NE didn't recover Bradshaw's fumble at the 30, I'll never know. Then there was the forced fumble on Manning that bounced the Giants' way. Every break seemed to go like that.

    The defensive front stuffed Jacksonville's vaunted run game, kept San Diego out of the endzone, did very well against the Giants' run game, and in general held opposing offenses out of the endzone for a stretch of 9 straight quarters in the playoffs. That's all really amazing when a person thinks about it.

    But it still comes down to making plays in the clutch, and to that end, unfortunately, NE came up short, obviously. But as I said before: if we had known before the game that the Giants would score only 17 points, nearly all of us would have predicted a NE victory and maybe even a blowout.
  15. DonBlackmon55

    DonBlackmon55 Rookie

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    Patriots D being physical is a myth. I don't care what anyone says to defend it. Yes, they've done an excellent job of stopping the run, but putting pressure CONSISTENTLY is no where.

    When was the last time you saw Pats DL DOMINATE the LOS. Only reason we finished #2 in sacks is b/c other teams were always behind and pass first philosopy played into the D hands.
  16. unoriginal

    unoriginal Rookie

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    Probably the last time I saw that was when the Pats were running a one-gap 4-3.

    The two-gap 3-4 isn't made to dominate the LOS, its made to control gaps and let the backers chase down the offensive backs.
  17. SoCal Pmen

    SoCal Pmen Rookie

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    This will definitely be an area of review and addressing by the coaching staff. When they look at the film and see how much time they allowed Manning and how little time Brady had it will hopefully get an upgrade. I don't think Colvin alone is the answer as his health is a question mark. I have faith in BB's ability to make the necessary changes here. With regards to corner, I would agree that they need to get more physical in that area and I don't think Hobbs is a long term answer there.
  18. CrazyDave

    CrazyDave Rookie

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    You know, when I heard that we were #2 in sacks I was amazed.
    I did'nt think we did a very good job with pass rush at all this year.
    Strange. We always seemed a step too late.
  19. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Rookie

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    it is extremely absurd to blame the d-linemen the strength of the defense.

    we need speed at linebacker. two added linebackers(playmakers) could make this the best defense.

    as i recall they had a top defense this season?
  20. unoriginal

    unoriginal Rookie

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    I looked at the 2003 and 2004 post-seasons. For starters in 2004 I had Wilfork/Traylor combined since they platooned, Warren, and Green/Seymour, as they started over each other due to injuries. For starters in 2003 I had Hamilton, Seymour, and Washington. Here are the stats for those 6 games:

    Tackles: 53
    Sacks: 2

    As terrible as our defensive line was in 2005-07, they were only half as good in 2003-04. You'd have to go back to 2002 to find a line that was really good and... oh, wait. Well, at least we had a good defensive line back in 2001, didn't we?
  21. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I'm just trying to deal in reality.
    If you are going to pin a loss on our 3 DL not getting sacks, then you have to blame our defensive philosophy not the players executing it.
    Our system calls for the DL to ENGAGE blockers, read the play, play 2 gap D, THEN rush the passer. On passing downs we use OLBs at DE.
    To compare pass rush of guys who play 2 gap to pass rush of guys who play one gap and in a system where you stop the run if you happen to on the way to the QB, is not a reasonable comparison.

    I just dont think the number of sacks made by 3 guys playing 2 gap run defense before being allowed to rush, and 2 guys playing DT on passing downs, is the primary reason we havent won any of the last 3 SBs.
  22. DonBlackmon55

    DonBlackmon55 Rookie

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    that's fine, except when your LB corps is basically 5 deep with bunch of ST as your backups. So all the pressure from D lies in the hands of 5 LB, all of whom are 30+.
    seau 39
    Brus 35
    Vrabel 32
    Colvin 30
    AD 30

    Needless to say, if Pioli and BB can't see the failures of last 3 yrs, what more evidence do they need that the LB are the problem of this team. Expecting Vrabel and Colvin to carry the Pass rush load for entire year is stupid.

    The ILB have no speed for inside blitzes.

    Fact is all of this finally blew up in BB's face at the most critical juncture of the season both in 2007 and 2008.
  23. DonBlackmon55

    DonBlackmon55 Rookie

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    maybe BB needs to revaluate the D philosophy..This is a PASS FIRST league with all the new rules that were enforced post Pats of 2003-04. Yes stopping the run is important, however, there are no longer ELITE RB's out there with the exception of Tomlinson. There are no Barry Sanders, Emmitt Smith, curtis Martin, Corey Dillon, The BUS, TD, Marshall Faulk gamechangers as were about 10 yrs ago.

    So, expecting your D line to simply control gaps, and let the likes of Boller, Gerrard, Feeley, Eli, Peyton just throw at will against smurf DB's who themselves cant play press, is ancient philosophy.

    QB's will rip you apart if given the time. The Giants clearly showed latter part of the year that despite all world QB's with all world WR's, if you get relentless pressure on the QB from front 7, you can stop these teams
    -Romo
    -Favre
    -Brady

    were all stoppedby this insane pass rush. In the case of Romo and Favre, the pass rush made the Giants weak secondary look like the secondcoming of Lester Hayes and Mike Haynes
  24. SeymourTrophies

    SeymourTrophies Rookie

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    You could also look at who we had a linebacker in the last three seasons. Our linebacking core this year was the best it has been in 3 years, but it still wasn't great once Colvin went down. In 05 we had 50% of Bruschi, Vrabel, Ted Johnson, and Colvin. Last year we had bruschi at probably 75% of what he was before his stroke, vrabel, colvin, and Banta Cain after we lost Seau. This year our LBs were largely ineffective after the loss of Colvin. Playing with the guys we had at MLB and the fact they really didn't worry anyone consistently probably took more of a toll than Seymour's play. Even we he's playing poorly, Warren and Wilfork command double teams often, so the LBs are still supposed to be free, but they aren't that good.
  25. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Your comments sound like you are talking about the Dolphins or Falcons.
    I didn't realize QBs threw at will on us when we lost 1 game all year, and that was by allowing 17 points.
    I hardly consider the Giants OR ANY TEAMS pass rush INSANE. Sure, you can control a game or 2 with it, but the way the passing game is today, you simply cannot consistently dominate solely with a pass rush. The Giants led the NFL in sacks and barely had 3 a game.
    If you want to abandon run defense principles and be in 2nd and 4 all day, I don't know how you get a pass rush that way either.

    Quite frankly, the issue I see with our defense is not a jaded idea of taking everything away from every team on every play, thats just not realistic.
    The problem I see is coverage from LBs, safeties and nickel/dime backs. I cannot rip our corners, because they have covered well all year. However, when team have moved the ball well on us, its come in the middle of the field, its come on plays like the Boss catch, and the Tyree catch, and it comes in obvious passing sitautions, particularly 2 minute drills.
    The best pass D we have ever played was when Wilson was a starting safety, but played the slot in the nickel, when we had Law and Poole at corners, when we had Rodney Harrison in his prime, Bruschi in his prime.
    We made stops on 2 minute drives because we could cover. We dont cover as well in the middle of the field (Remember anything we say we dont do well has to be looked at as an 18-1 team, that was 1minute from winning it all, so we are splitting hairs. We do everything better than most)
  26. everlong

    everlong Rookie

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    #12 Jersey
    I would imagine they will restructure Colvin's contact using the one year remaining as a signing bonus so they can get some cap relief for 08.
  27. Marko

    Marko Rookie

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    Exactly, Andy always has salient arguments. the front three in a 3-4 is not measured with sacks! Much of the pressure is supposed to come from one or more of the LB's this is why Mcginest was effective, you could move him around or put him in coverage and it's harder to tell where the pressure is going to come from.
  28. Marko

    Marko Rookie

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    Another good point i was just thinking today how when Law and Poole were our corners W/Harrison and Wilson @safety in '03 our d was the bomb!
  29. MrBigglesWorth

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    they were pretty physical corners. maybe that's what we need to go back to
  30. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I think the biggest difference of the last 2 years vs the Championship years is coverage in pass situations. Nickelback, safety and LB have been weak in coverage in obvious passing situations.
    Look back at the 2minute drills. The SB, each game that was close. The weakness, perhaps only weakness of our defense this year, was that when teams went into the 2 minute drill, receivers we open in the middle of the field. (I would add 3rd down to that, but overall we played well on 3rd down all year, it just wasn't very good in those situations).
    Think about the drives we allowed that kept the few close games we had close, and the final drive of the SB. Where did QBs go to beat us? The middle of the field. What did you see? Nickel backs and safeties allowing catches in front of them then coming up to make the hit. LBs one step or 2 out of the passing lane.
    We need to improve the SPEED and more importantly coverage ability of all the other guys except the starting 2 corners, to be better in these situations.

    Think about it. You go into a 2 minute drill vs the Pats. In coverage we are going to have Gay at nickel (and in some cases a safety instead) Rodney Harrison and Sanders at S, Bruschi/Seau, Vrabel/Thoams in coverage.
    That has to be the slowest group in the NFL.

    This team was soooooooooooo good that it never hurt it but for 2 occassions:
    1) In 2006 when the Colts were down a bundle and ran the 2 minute offense the entire second half and
    2) SB XLII when the game was won if we could stop a 2 minute offense, one that isn't exactly the greatest Ive ever seen. Yes, we dropped a couple of coulda, shoulds, woulda Ints, and couldnt bring Manning down, but go back and look at the coverage. They threw to the middle of the field. Boss ramble 45 yards. He is slow. We were slower. Tyree was way too open in the middle of the field after Manning started running for his life. Rodney of 2 years ago, Eugene Wilson of 2 years ago, etc would have made that catch impossible, or picked it off. Instead, our secondary was in the picture but not in good coverage every time they went to the middle of the field.
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