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The Patriot Ketchup analogy

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by R_T26, Mar 11, 2006.

  1. R_T26

    R_T26 Banned

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    I have faith in BB and Pioli...but they are not flawless. 2 of the last 4 years they have done pretty bad in FA, some of that can be attributed to not having a lot of room. But I hope they dont get to arrogant thinking they can get by with second level players. The reason they were able to bring in second tier fa's and be successfull was because they had a solid group around them beforehand. Its good when your adding complementary pieces to a harrison/milloy and law in the defensive backfield, or to Bruschi,Johnson, Mcginest in the LB corps, or some second tier recievers to Givens and Branch. But now the core guys are leaving. Its like having a bottle of ketchup 75% full and filling it up 25% with water, it will still be ketchup, but then make it 50-50, it still tastes like ketchup but watered down, then %25 ketchup 75%- water, you realize you should of bought a new bottle of ketchup a long time ago. What Im saying is if you go from Law/Harrison to Samual/ Hawkins, then T. Johnson/McGinest to Beisel/Brown etc. the team eventually wont be able to compete. The Patriots Dynasty was not built on a bunch of role players but a young team of studs:

    Brady-24
    Law-27
    Milloy-27
    Bruschi- 28
    Willie-30

    Those guys were all hitting their prime. What Im trying to say is we need to replace those guys with new studs or risk mediocrity.

    Another reason I say this is because the redskins intend to aquire Lloyd and Randall-El, the Browns Jureviscious, were losing Givens and I see no replacement.
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2006
  2. holyredeemer

    holyredeemer Rookie

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    #12 Jersey

    Well said, I totally agree. Watered down ketchup really sux. So does a watered down football team. I just think the FA players they've been bringing in or trading for have been horrible. None have improved this team. Beisel, Brown, Starks, Scott, Davis....the list goes on and on for the last two yrs. Only two out of that group MIGHT improve and that's Beisel and Davis. IMO I wouldn't hold my breath on either one. Not to mention, they all seem to be watered down ball players. None of those guys are aggressive ass kickers. I know if they're in the NFL they gotta be tough, but none of our recent signings seem to be bringing that to the field with them.
  3. primetime

    primetime Rookie

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    #18 Jersey

    Funny. Milloy was here for one Super Bowl, Law only played in two (and has hit 30, the year of death for corners). Bruschi was 28 during the first Super Bowl run... and 30 during the second. And McGinest was 32 for the second, and before the first was almost unanimously considered over the hill and unproductive. The first Super Bowl was a fluke, more or less. Keep in mind the running backs have never been "young studs" but rather 30-plus washouts of other teams (aside from Faulk, who is a 3rd down back)... and when it comes to the offseason recently, how about Colvin, Dillon, and Rodney? Rodney came to us after his 30th birthday, Dillon was 29. Brady's main target in the first Super Bowl was Troy Brown, who was on the wrong side of 30 even back then. He had no stud tight end to throw to. The only superstar on the team was Ty Law, and Vinatieri if you could consider a kicker a star. It took a couple years after the first Super Bowl for Brady to establish himself as the best QB in the business.

    What about veteran role players like Bobby Hamilton? Kevin Faulk? Christian Fauria? Don Davis? Je'Rod Cherry?

    I think you're not looking close enough to see the system behind the Patriots successes. Don't look at the stars, look at the players around the stars. The Colts had a lot of young studs too... see how many rings they have?
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2006
  4. flutie2phelan

    flutie2phelan Rookie

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    That's a chilling thought, RT. But i see what you mean.

    I'm not concerned about shedding established DBs ... or LBs.
    You can see reinforcements galloping to the rescue,
    in the draft ... in FA ... and already on the roster.

    But the WR cupboard is pretty bare.
    Perhaps THAT is why the bidding for Givens may have risen too high
    for even the cap-space-rich Browns.
  5. holyredeemer

    holyredeemer Rookie

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    #12 Jersey

    none fo the guys I mentioned in my complaint are stars. They are supposed to be part of that backgroound of business that you refer to. And they never panned out. Those are the players that are going to keep the pats competetive. However, the guys you mentioned that the Pats have brought in were already stars and low risk investments. The pats role players, you must admit, have gone downhill and sooner or later it will catch up to this team. Oh, and Dillon hasnt done anything but had one great season. Cannot really judge him for a few more yrs. Antowain Smith had one good yr. too. remember?
  6. R_T26

    R_T26 Banned

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    Primetime your missing my point. The years the Pats were proactive in FA or trades tended to be their best. Harriosn, Colvin, and Dillon were not considered second tier players, Im talking about the beisels, starks, hayes, of the world. I know a lot of people will disagree with me, but I would love to see a Charles Woodson in a Pats uni, though he's been hurt, he still has plenty left and would thrive in a winning situation, but instead the Pats will get someone like Torrie Cox. The Pats have $17 million, try to be proactive then just waiting for the leftovers.
  7. ayjackson

    ayjackson Rookie

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    really, the superbowls started with a man named Brady....he's the ketchup....everyone else is a role player
  8. RayClay

    RayClay On the Roster

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    #75 Jersey

    Warren Wilfork Seymour Brady Graham Watson Branch j. Green Koppen Mankins Kazur
  9. rookBoston

    rookBoston Rookie

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    #12 Jersey

    I dont buy it. The Pats are always proactive in FA. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

    Dillon and Washington worked. Starks didnt. Andre Davis did. The same people that brought us Beisel brought us Vrabel. They had the same resume coming from their former teams. Hayes was a bust but the same search process discovered Patten from even more obscure places.

    Woodson is a primadonna. He should be a perfect fit in Oakland and if he cant fit in there, there's no way we'd be interested. BB's not afraid to make a big move for the right player. But it wont be Woodson.

    This Moulds thing, tho... that would be great.
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2006
  10. RayClay

    RayClay On the Roster

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    #75 Jersey

    Just because the Pats haven't fanned on a high dollar acquisition doesn't mean it can't happen. It does to many teams and wrecks their chances for years.

    If Pats are sure about someone they go after them, (Rosie, Rodney).

    Otherwise they prefer drafting and low risk free agents.

    I don't want gamblers in my front office.
  11. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    Holyredeemer -
    Really? For the Last two years the players they have been bringing in via Free Agency or Trade have been horrible? Guess you missed that Corey Dillon was traded for prior to the 2004 season. I guess you also like to throw the baby out with the bathwater and can't be bothered to look beyond a single year. Beisel was brought in as a project for the ILB position. Chad Scott played well for the Pats until going down to injury. Andre Davis was the Pats best kick returner by the end of last year.

    How about Artrell Hawkins and Michael Stone? Hawkins shored up the secondary and Stone was the Pats best Special teams player after he arrived.

    Oh, and how about JOSH MILLER, who the Pats signed prior to the 2004 season? Guess he was a total waste, right?

    The Pats have done a pretty decent job at bringing in quality talent via trade and free agency. Did they strike out on some? Yes. But every team does that. Why do people insist on acting like the Pats have just missed the boat totally? Does it make you feel better or something?
  12. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    R_T -
    Thank you for proving that what you'd REALLY like is for the Pats to sign a Marquis player who lives only on his name. That is Charles Woodson.

    The fact is that you are WRONG about the Patriots. The signings of Harrison and Colvin did not take place RIGHT AWAY during free agency so your claims of them being pro-active are false at best.

    Yes, the Pats have 17 million to spend. However, they also have Seymour, Branch, Koppen, Graham, and Samuel who are Free agents next year. The cap is only going up 7 million from this year to next. Do you honestly believe that the Pats can sign those 5 with only 7 million in cap space extra next year and with other player's cap numbers going up?

    Stop and think for a minute. This free agency period isn't just about this year. Its also about next year as well when the Pats have 5 MAJOR free agents up for contract.
  13. primetime

    primetime Rookie

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    #18 Jersey

    Charles Woodson is one of those Heisman winners that people just won't give up on, like Danny Awful or Rashan Salaam. The difference being shutdown corners are much harder to find then good running backs or decent quarterbacks, so he lives off a reputation he had during college and never lived up to in the pro's. Lucky guy.
  14. kurtinelson

    kurtinelson Rookie

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    #37 Jersey

    Brady is more than just the ketchup. He's the special sauce.
  15. R_T26

    R_T26 Banned

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    First off people are underating Woodson. When healthy he's better then anything we got. Last year people probably thought Starks was better value then Ken Lucas. If the Pats signed Woodson people would love the deal. Its funny how when the Pats sign Terrell or trade for Starks people get excited and think being in this system they will be productive, but Woodson has better talent and been more productive then both of them. And as for when the Pats got Harrison and Colvin, yes they were a week into free agency, but that team hadnt lost Law, McGinest, Givens. The Patriots need to improve upon last years roster in order to win a Super Bowl, now they are in the position where they have to make several moves just to get back to that level. I trust BB/Pioli but they are not perfect, and we cant expect every guy to be the next Vrabel. Think about the moves that worked:

    Poole (2003 @ least)-but was put in a secondary with 2 all pros
    Dillon-Proven Player
    Harrison-Proven Player
    Colvin-Proven Player
    Washington-Proven Player
    Traylor-Proven Player

    And this year has taught me the salary cap is bogus and should not be feared.

    1 week ago the Redskins were going to have to cut their whole team-now they are going to sign half the free agents on the market. No deal in the NFL will ruin your franchise, its ok to take chances once in a while. Like I said before when the Pats were adding Free agents, they were adding them to a solid core, now that core is dwindling. Patriot fans seem to think every good player is overated/overpriced because they know the Pats wont go after them, but if they signed these guys people will be excited. One of the most exciting times was after 2002 because you were confident they were going to be good. Its so early in FA, and I know im over reacting, but the Pats need to build a new core.
  16. kurtinelson

    kurtinelson Rookie

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    #37 Jersey

    Wow - using condiments as a metaphor for the perceived talent erosion of the New England Patriots...interesting. Your analysis is right up there with "the theory of value grouping" as far as I'm concerned.
  17. R_T26

    R_T26 Banned

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    I was going to use the shampoo analogy, but stuck with condements, thanks for the compliment.
  18. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    Charles Woodson is one of the most over-rated CBs in the league. Sorry.

    Since you missed it, the Redskins, as of yesterday, were still over the salary cap. They have yet to sign anyone. So, for you to make your exaggerated statements shows you really lack in the concept of understanding the ramifications of the salary cap and free agency.

    The Patriots still have a solid core. For you to sit there and act like the sky is falling in just because McGinest was cut and Givens is moving on really shows a lack of understanding regarding the whole game, never mind just free agency.

    Yes, the Patriots need a new core. But, since you missed it, let me fill you in on who it is. The players who are the "core" of the team include Brady, Seymour, Wilfork, Warren, Wilson, Light, Branch, Koppen, Bruschi, Vrabel, Harrison. Players whom the Pats have added to strengthen that core include, Sanders, Kaczur, Mankins, and Ellis Hobbs, last year. Watson and G. Scott the year before. The core USED to Include McGinest, Law and Milloy. McGinest could still be part of that core, we won't know for a few days.

    Do the Pats need someone behind McGinest? Yes, since I don't believe that TBC is that player.

    Do I feel the Pats need another ILB? Yes. I think that Claridge will be a good player, but the Pats need someone to groom behind Bruschi unless they are completely sold on Beisel.

    Where do the Pats have their biggest needs? WR, O-line depth, LB, Safety. There are players like Bart Scott, Tank Williams, Brian Finneran, and Kevin Mawae who could be very good solutions for those spots. But the DRAFT is where the Pats will get a majority of the depth to replace the core.

    You seem to have a propensity to over-react and not look at the whole picture.
  19. R_T26

    R_T26 Banned

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    DB I know you from the ESPN boards, though I think you know what your talking about, you sometimes sugarcoat everything for the Pats. If every one is overpriced or overated then who do you sign, seriously. As for thinking Claridge will be a good player, how do we know, none of us ever saw a UNLV football game, no one has ever seen him play. This team needs to IMPROVE from last year, not stay the same or digress. We pretty much know, barring a trade, that the Pats recieving corps will be worse, and unless willie is resigned, the lB corps will be worse.
  20. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    R_T -
    Where have I said everyone is over-priced or over-rated? Do you enjoy putting words in other people's mouths as well as exaggerating beyond logic? Also, as for your sugar-coating comments, I'm a Pats fan. I am optimistic for them. But if you had been reading my posts on McGinest, you'd have seen that I said it was a bad move.

    As for Claridge, I said I think he will be good. That means its my opinion. Why do I think he will be good? A few reasons. One is that he came out of a 3-4 defense in college. Two is that he was getting some very good reviews before he got hurt in camp last year.

    As for the team IMPROVING, you are the king of stating the obvious, aren't you. That is the Patriots goal every year. To try and improve. As for your other garbage, no, we don't know that, barring a trade, the Pats receiving corps will be worse. Its the first day of free agency. If you followed the Patriots at all, you'd know that, under BB/Pioli, they rarely if ever sign players on the 1st day or even the 1st week.

    Also, how do you know that the LB corps will be worse unless the Pats re-sign McGinest. Are you pre-cognizant or something? Can you see the future? I thought it was a bad move because Willie is still one of the best 3-4 OLB in the game. But the Pats actually had 3 damn good 3-4 OLBs in Colvin, Vrabel, and McGinest. So, maybe the Pats feel that they can be a more well-rounded team with the 6.8 million in funds they freed up from cutting McGinest. Also, neither of us knows whether Willie will be back. And we don't know how well his replacement will play. If its Manny Lawson, he could outplay McGinest tremendously. Neither of us knows.

    R-T, I think you should rename yourself to Chicken Little, put on a chicken suit, and run around flapping your arms yelling, "The sky is falling. The SKY IS FALLING." :bricks:

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