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The "pass-rushing OLB" myth

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by Patspsycho, Apr 30, 2011.

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  1. Patspsycho

    Patspsycho Rookie

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    Every time that "we need an OLB" gets out of control, I like to post this wonderful treatise by Jays52:

  2. Joker

    Joker PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I'm guessing you don't have a bulletproof vest, Psycho...I think this may prove to be a mistake....INCOMINNNNNNNNNNNG!!!..:bricks:
  3. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Jay52 nailed it.


    The premise of this D as BB has said is "everyone do YOUR job" we had a young athletic fast D. We had breakdowns because young players would get in the wrong position ie they didn't do 'their' job. Experience will cure this.

    Lack of talent wasn't the issue the D improved as the young players got more experience. IF the DL hadn't been destroyed by injuries (2 healthy DL in the playoff's) the D would have been fine in the playoffs.


    When we understand that and the reality that we may have little or no offseason to integrate rookies into the scheme this draft looks great lots of talent for 2012, and 2 rb's who need the least time to learn their job and contribute this year for the position.
  4. jmt57

    jmt57 Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    What, do you mean to tell me that the thought jays52 put into his commentary makes more sense than the thought put into "#*&%!+ Belichick sonof ^!@*+* stupid idiotic arrogant mother*%@!=/: dumbass" commentary found on draft day threads within milliseconds after a draft pick is made?
  5. BaltimorePatsFan

    BaltimorePatsFan Rookie

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    Regardless of position, the Pats need an elite pass rusher if they want to win a title.

    10 Packers: Clay Matthews (OLB)
    09 Saints: Will Smith
    08 Steelers: Harrison and Woodley (OLB)
    07 Giants: Strahan, Umenyiora, and Tuck
    06 Colts: Freeney and Mathis

    Patriots: Tully Banta-Cain???
  6. Patspsycho

    Patspsycho Rookie

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    Yes, I dare say that.
  7. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    There is also the issue that the way NFL offenses are run today, it is virtually impossible to get pressure on over half the throws that are out before anyone but an untouched rusher could even get close enough to have any impact on the QB.

    There are some inalienable truths with every NFL fan base, and you can go to 32 boards and they will all complain about these at times

    1) The OC sucks, I could call better plays
    2) The QB has all day we need a pass rush
    3) When we allow 1 sack, our QB is getting murdered, our OL is a turnstile
    4) When a pass is caught, that corner is toast
    5) Any game that is lost is because the team 'didnt show up' and weren't into it
    6) Any run of over 10 yards means we are getting 'gashed' and cant stop the run to save our lives.
    7) Any loss is ultimately blamed by some on the refs
    8) A winning team that loses a game really sucks, and is overrated and should make wholesale changes
    9) A losing team that wins is ready to break out
    10) If next weeks opponent won last week, we are in trouble because they are hot, if they lost, we are doomed because they are mad,

    Fans are the same everywhere.
    Last edited by a moderator: May 1, 2011
  8. eom

    eom Rookie

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    lolz.....I especially like #10.
    you'd think carolina and oakland would be the most feared teams in the league as pissed off as they must be.
    talk about revenge games......
  9. Patspsycho

    Patspsycho Rookie

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    Apparently you did not read what Jay wrote about the myth of the "elite pass-rusher." Having an elite pass-rusher most definitely is not going to win you any title, because you know who he is, and where he is coming from. Any QB with an iota of smarts will know to slide protection, play away, or exploit the vacant zone behind him.

    Great pass-rushing or pressure occurs when you don't know where it's coming from. That's far more effective, when it's a result of the system than a single player such as Matthews, an one-trick pony who Vollmer completely shut down in the Packers game.

    What was misconstrued as a lack of an elite pass-rusher, I have time and again, rewatched most of the games, and I have seen clearly that it had mostly to do with youth more than anything else (lack of consistent focus, mental toughness, scheme execution).

    It only got better as the season went on, as Andy points out (see below), and while the 3rd down conversion rate went down slightly, it still went down.


  10. memento

    memento Rookie

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    The majority of the league relies on pin-your-ears back rushers, so the majority of superbowl winners will have the Clay Matthews and the Dwight Freeneys. Doesn't mean collapsing the pocket slowly but surely won't work.

    I'd rather have a pocket collapser that can also look for the run. I'm still haunted by the 2009 playoff loss.
  11. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

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    A lot of our sacks used to come from the DL collapsing the pocket, or wearing down the line.

    We could potentially be pretty strong this year with the addition of Stroud and Warren, progression of Brace and maybe resigning Gerard.

    Hopefully, we are able to add one more young pillar in coming years.

    Cunningham should be much better with less thinking and more playing. I'm sure he had a lot thrown at him last year. Moore might be that guy that is just itching to get his shot after obscurity. Looked like it last year. I think Nink is a good hustling player, not a star, but we've gone a long way with hard working improving players.

    I think TBC is gone. Knows the system, not real strong against the run, so what's the excuse? Good contract run the year before, I guess. What do we lose by bringing in some situational rusher?
    Last edited: May 1, 2011
  12. eom

    eom Rookie

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    I don't see stroud or brace collapsing any pocket on passing downs, and maybe not even warren --- but I'm staying positive.
  13. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Well, lets spin the facts to fit the conclusion.
    Will Smith is not an elite pass rusher. He has averaged less than 7 sacks a year for his career.
    The Giants did not have an elite pass rusher in 2007, they had a number of pretty decent ones.
  14. eom

    eom Rookie

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    first off, you should be aware that 4-3 ends, have different jobs than 3-4 ends, or olb, just as 3-4 olb will play differently in pitt than they do in ne.
    not to say maybe gb and pitt don't have better defenses -- they certainly do pretty well, while we haven't exactly been elite, but then again we hung 32 on the steelers, 24 on green bay, and 45 on the jets , so let's not act like we're horrible and these other teams have it all figured out.
  15. randomk1

    randomk1 Rookie

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    It's no ******* myth. Every top D in the league features a fearsome pass rusher.
  16. jukes

    jukes Rookie

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    Yet none of those defenders can also stop the run or play in two gaps. did u not see clay in the SB and vs NE? he got put on his ass if it wasnt for pickett the play would have never happened vs the steelers.

    There arent alot of tamba hali's and suggs walking around, and to be honest cunningham is pretty damn close(Cunningham being picked around the same place as woodley)
    Last edited: May 1, 2011
  17. Fencer

    Fencer Rookie

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    Being blockable on a class of plays isn't the end of the world, as long as you generally occupy your blocker without leaving him free to do much else.

    If you destroy single blockers on the pass rush and merely occupy a blocker on running plays, you can still be a very good player.

    That's not how BB designs his defenses. He wants everybody who's apt to have a blocker on him to be at least an occupier-plus, never likely to be so controlled he can't come off the block and at least participate in making a play. But defenses with less stoutness and more speed than that can succeed as well.
  18. Doggin94it

    Doggin94it Rookie

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    11) I think I'll trust my GM and my head coach more than I trust you armchair evaluators.

    12) If you question any of the team's moves, you aren't a true fan

    sound familiar? :D
  19. Doggin94it

    Doggin94it Rookie

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    agreed. thats why teams like the colts (Freeney), packers (Matthews), Ravens (Suggs) and Steelers (Harrison) routinely have trouble pressuring the QB. After all, it's not like an elite pass-rusher gets extra attention paid to them in the protection schemes, opening opportunities for their teammates tio clean up after them . . .
  20. Miguel

    Miguel Patriots Salary Cap Guru PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Was this posted before or after the divisional playoff game?
  21. Doggin94it

    Doggin94it Rookie

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    Guys - you have some reasons for optimism about your D - particularly the returns of Bodden and Warren. But both the turnover ratio and Brady will regress to the mean. Brady's mean is still pretty ridiculous, but he's not going 400 throws without a pick this year. And without the turnover rate (and that's almost never consistent year to year), your D gives up a lot more points.
  22. randomk1

    randomk1 Rookie

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    Yeah...these guys get so much attention that they don't lead the sacks leader board every year...it's always some unknown guy popping up.
  23. Big-T

    Big-T Rookie

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    The Jets don't, they have a good scheme and a good secondary.

    What have the Patriots done the last couple of years? Yep, started to build up a strong secondary and if McCourty can play as well/better than last year, with Bodden back in the mix the pass rush (which will be determined by scheme, not personnel) will get that extra half a second to hit the QB more frequently.
  24. jukes

    jukes Rookie

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    What ever happened to developing your own players? perhaps we should just wait and see how cunningham pans out
  25. convertedpatsfan

    convertedpatsfan PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I've edited the above to include sacks by the guys you mentioned in the Super Bowl, as you seem to think they were the difference makers between winning and losing. I'm sure there were a few sacks in 2007, and Woodley collected 2 in 2008, but the other 4 elite pass-rushers for SB winners combined for 0 sacks.
  26. jukes

    jukes Rookie

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    I think cunningham has a good motor, and will probably turn out to be a standout guy. Though i'd rather have vince wilfork pushing the inside pocket and getting pick sixes by mccourty...
    Last edited: May 1, 2011
  27. jukes

    jukes Rookie

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    If it was me i woulda forced sanchez to beat me as well, its not like he was playing good this season. I think it was pretty obvious why we lost this game and i dont think having julius peppers would have made us score more points or stop shaun ellis.
    Last edited: May 1, 2011
  28. RhodyPatriot

    RhodyPatriot Rookie

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    Hey why not just eliminate the position entirely?? :rolleyes:

    The great myth on this board is the genius of Bill Belichick.

    Richard Seymour for Nate Solder. OUCH!
    BTW didn't Belichick have the option of taking the Raiders 1st from last year but deferred to the much weaker draft class (so say the Chickians NOW) this year?? OUCH Again!
  29. FreeTedWilliams

    FreeTedWilliams Moderator PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Let me answer this with another question(s):

    What was the difference in the Giants beating the Pats in the Superbowl?

    Why did the Pats lose to the Jets (twice) last year?

    How did Baltimore beat the Pats in the playoffs?
  30. fillylabinga

    fillylabinga Rookie

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    While it may be true that OLB is not the most important part of a pass rush that doesn't mean that the Pats shouldn't be trying to improve their OLB position.

    There are certainly some posters in the camp where they see a Ware or a Matthews and want the same kind of impact edge rusher. I'm more in the camp that sees the pass rush as a serious (but not the only) problem for the Pats and just want it addressed.

    Personally, I don't care where the pass rush comes from so long as it's there. As it happens, the weakest part of the Pats front 7 appears to be OLB at the moment. Adding an interior lineman like Suh would probably be a great way to improve the pass rush. It's also a highly unlikely way to improve it. The simplest way would seem to be upgrading on what the OLBs are giving us.
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