The OFFICIAL Patriots vs Bills PostGame Thread

[MoLewisrocks]

Belichick has surrounded himself with guys that don't present any "threat" to his authority and control on the defensive side of the ball. Most of our coaches were slowly brought into his system, and completely adhere to his philosophy. It's time to bring in someone with a new perspective, someone who's willing to challenge Bill on the coaching front. When you are in a position where everything you say is the gospel, and nobody has the guts to contradict you on it, people tend to become a little complacent. We have too many "yes-man" on the coaching staff, and while having coaches Belichick trusts, and helped bring up is important, you also need some outside views.

Trouble is we've never had outside views. Just more experienced insiders. RAC and Eric came up in the system under BB and/or BP in NY. Pees came in via Saban. One of the problems BB has had in continuing that trend is he's lost a couple of candidates along the way because of the success he's had here opening up opportunities for them to get ahead faster elsewhere based on some of the training they got here. And each generation of protoges since the first batch has had to attempt to come farther faster. And they either don't show the schematic genius he is drawn to or they don't fundamantally grasp how to coach.

He's still not going to go out and persue outsiders. He never has. He may need to start spending more time consulting with his former protoges like Saban who helped him devise the defense that derailed the greatest show on turf...

 

[hodgey]

Bill doesn't wear that headset to make a fashion statement. And he has the initial and final say on gameplans, particularly on defense. Patricia like RAC and Eric (who had a little more input until BB took his headset away midway through his lone season as a DC here) are conduits, period. The buck stops with BB. He's the one who has to beat some situational sense into McDaniels and he's the one who makes the fundamental call on whether we play coverage and feature that ugly soft zone defense or get aggressive up front and remain stout against the run.

A bad day at the office by multiple defenders (penalties, missed tackles) exacerbated the situation yesterday. But you never saw Bill grabbing Patricia's headset or screaming into his own, what you saw instead was that befuddled look again on BB's mug like why isn't it working... It may just be because he hasn't managed to secure the kind of talent it takes to make that scheme work and/or because he refuses to throw in the towel on his scheme and adapt it to the talent he has at hand. Those philosophical decisions are, as they say, made above Matt Patricia's pay grade. Bill's coordinators are never more than an extension of Bill. Unlike in places where the HC is one sided and either his OC or DC in fact brings a scheme of their own to the table or the GM is in charge and reliant on a HC or coordinators to provide a scheme that fits his talent or provides him a blueprint on which to base future acquisitions.

More experienced assistants may at times have forced Bill to think outside his comfort zone box. But then again butting heads with him is what ultimately led to Eric's departure, and probably Pees departure, while the desire to stand alone clearly drove RAC's departure which hasn't exactly panned out for him. RAC was never the genius behind the earlier defenses. He was just the experienced installation and maintenance technician on what were generally more talented and and increasingly system veteran heavy defenses. This defense is a whole other kettle of fish, most of whom are young and inexperienced and some of whom are vastly lesser talents.

Well its been years of excuse making on BB behalf. We hear its a combination of crappy players and coaches that have prevented the defensive guru from fielding an average D. We may have 4-5 pro bowlers on the D. Wilfolk, jones, Mayo, Spikes, McCourty are all in consideration for the probowl. Lets not BS the situation. BB plays scared on D. I for the life of me dont understand why when you have the best offense in the league. It would be like the dream team in basketball playing a four corner slow down scheme due to the fact all their superstars dont play great D. To me the scheme is just stupid. Please try anything different..

BTW I appreciate past accomplishments, but I'm living in the now.

 

[Deus Irae]

If true, then there goes the "coaching isn't a problem" argument.

Belichick has taken over coaching duties before when he's seen a problem on the field. It hasn't necessarily meant that the coaching was the problem.

 

[chris_in_sunnyvale]

I had flashbacks to the Steelers game last year when the Pats played deep coverages to avoid Wallace killing them and instead got picked apart underneath, much like Buffalo did yesterday. Getting torched late in Seattle and early in London probably does that to a defensive philosophy.

Horrendous tackling did not help matters.

I get the fans' frustration in these scary-as-hell 4th quarters...I think everybody went "uh oh" when the Pats managed only a FG to go up by 6, then watched the opposition drive to the shadow of the goalline before the gift pick to McCourty. I can only imagine the outrage if the Pats lost their 3rd 1-point game of the year in yet another 4th quarter collapse.

I'm clearly in the "a win is a win", "a close win offers a chance to learn" and "they'll cure their ills as the season progresses" camps, but I'm not going to call those who focus on doom-and-gloom as chicken-littles. In nine games, the Pats have had four two-score 4th quarter leads either evaporate (Baltimore, Seattle, NY) or come frighteningly close (Buffalo). They had a 5th game (Arizona) they stole, then unstole. And a sixth game (@Buffalo) they were down two TDs in the 2nd half before going off on a "where was this team for the last 30+ minutes?" 45pt explosion. This team is a few plays from 9-0. It's also a few from 3-6. There's plenty of work to do. There has been plenty since the seaon started and it's arguable that nine games in they've made a lot of progress.

I'm betting they make that progress, but if others question why I think they will, I understand why.

Regards,
Chris

 

[condon84]

Belichick has taken over coaching duties before when he's seen a problem on the field. It hasn't necessarily meant that the coaching was the problem.

If he sees a problem on the field and he takes over coaching as a solution, isn't it safe to assume better coaching is what BB think is needed?

 

[Deus Irae]

If he sees a problem on the field and he takes over coaching as a solution, isn't it safe to assume better coaching is what BB think is needed?

No. It's safe to assume that BB thinks that area needs his personal attention. Now, it's possible that he thinks better coaching is needed, but even that doesn't mean that he thinks the current coaching is bad. It's BB's defense and he thinks he teaches it as well as pretty much anyone can, after all.

 

[ATippett56]

If he sees a problem on the field and he takes over coaching as a solution, isn't it safe to assume better coaching is what BB think is needed?

How is better coaching the solution when five of the ten defensive backs currently on the roster are better known as special teamers:

Nate Ebner
Malcolm Williams
Derrick Martin
Kyle Arrington
Marquice Cole

 

[JMC00]

Pats made it interesting through out with Bills matching scores at will and Pats never really gettin that seperation.

They were up 17-3, 24-10 and 31-17 at certain points yesterday. Two touchdowns is separation.

The problem stemmed from them not getting off the field when the Bills got the ball with 3:54 left in the first half.

They had them in a 3rd and 8 and gave up the first down. If they get off the field right there. Pats get the ball back with three time outs.

Chances are they would have scored making it 31-10. Then the first touchdown of the second half makes it 38-10.

One stop basically changes the whole game.

Look at the Rams game, defense gets off the field, offense scores to end the half 28-7, instead of it being 21-10 or 21-14.

 

[condon84]

How is better coaching the solution when five of the ten defensive backs currently on the roster are better known as special teamers:

Nate Ebner
Malcolm Williams
Derrick Martin
Kyle Arrington
Marquice Cole

So coaching doesn't make a difference?

 

[condon84]

No. It's safe to assume that BB thinks that area needs his personal attention. Now, it's possible that he thinks better coaching is needed, but even that doesn't mean that he thinks the current coaching is bad. It's BB's defense and he thinks he teaches it as well as pretty much anyone can, after all.

I don't know if you've realized, but the defense is getting worse. It's possible that the entire secondary personnel is just all playing horribly at the same time, but it's more probable that opposing offenses are seeing tendencies by our secondary and are exploiting it.

Isn't it fair to say that opposing offensive coaches are doing a better job of putting their players in position to succeed vs our defensive coaches and their inability to put our defensive players to do the same? If you look at the Bills offensive personnel vs our defensive personnel, I don't see the vast difference in talent that equals the Bills scoring 31 points and gaining 480 yards.

 

[Deus Irae]

I don't know if you've realized, but the defense is getting worse.

I've been pointing this out since 2008/2009, so I'm not sure why you'd wonder if I realized it.

It's possible that the entire secondary personnel is just all playing horribly at the same time, but it's more probable that opposing offenses are seeing tendencies by our secondary and are exploiting it.

Actually, the players sucking make it very easy for opposing offenses to find weaknesses, and tendencies become less important.

Isn't it fair to say that opposing offensive coaches are doing a better job of putting their players in position to succeed vs our defensive coaches and their inability to put our defensive players to do the same?

No. History, even as recent as last year, has demonstrated this claim to be wrong time and again.

If you look at the Bills offensive personnel vs our defensive personnel, I don't see the vast difference in talent that equals the Bills scoring 31 points and gaining 480 yards.

Remembering that McCourty was playing safety, not corner:

Name the CB who has the ability/experience combination to be anything approaching a fair match for Steve Johnson.

Name the LB/S who has the ability/experience combination to be anything approaching a fair match for Spiller.

 

[Boomer B]

As much as a lot of people think our LBs are amongst the best in the league the reality is that they are amongst the worst in pass coverage. When Chung comes back they should put him in at LB on passing downs and let him cover the TEs or RBs.

Passing down lineup:

Line: Ninkovich, Cunningham, Wilfork, Jones
LB: Mayo, Chung
DBs: Talib, Dennerd, Arrington, Gregory, McCourty,

press coverage on the outside and let's mix in some blitzes from Mayo/Chung/McCourty

 

[condon84]

I've been pointing this out since 2008/2009, so I'm not sure why you'd wonder if I realized it.

That's very astute of you.

Actually, the players sucking make it very easy for opposing offenses to find weaknesses, and tendencies become less important.

The players sucking in addition to a very easy scheme to dissect makes even ****ty QBs like Fitz look good.

No. History, even as recent as last year, has demonstrated this claim to be wrong time and again.

Just because you say so doesn't mean it is. There have been games where our defensive coaches have been outcoached believe it or not.

Remembering that McCourty was playing safety, not corner:

Name the CB who has the ability/experience combination to be anything approaching a fair match for Steve Johnson.

Name the LB/S who has the ability/experience combination to be anything approaching a fair match for Spiller.

We don't play man coverage exclusively so it doesn't matter if we have a guy who can exclusively cover Spiller or Johnson. And from what I saw, when we did play man coverage and brought pressure, we seemed to fair a lot better than when we played zone. From what I see, our zone coverage is more susceptible to easier completions.

As an aside, I don't know any LB who can cover Spiller exclusively. And Johnson is a handful even for the best CBs out there.

 

[Deus Irae]

That's very astute of you.

Eh... it's not as if I was the only one who saw it.

The players sucking in addition to a very easy scheme to dissect makes even ****ty QBs like Fitz look good.

When players can't handle complex plays because of inexperience or lack of talent, that's what happens. This is nothing new.

Just because you say so doesn't mean it is. There have been games where our defensive coaches have been outcoached believe it or not.

It's not true because I say it is. It's true because it's true, and being outcoached in an individual game now and again is irrelevant to the discussion.

We don't play man coverage exclusively so it doesn't matter if we have a guy who can exclusively cover Spiller or Johnson. And from what I saw, when we did play man coverage and brought pressure, we seemed to fair a lot better than when we played zone. From what I see, our zone coverage is more susceptible to easier completions.

Yes, they suck in man and zone right now. Is that really a suprise given what's been happening in that secondary in terms of who's been playing and why?

As an aside, I don't know any LB who can cover Spiller exclusively. And Johnson is a handful even for the best CBs out there.

Tell that to the person who was denigrating the Bills offensive talent.

 

[condon84]

Eh... it's not as if I was the only one who saw it.

I guess I wasn't being sarcastic enough.

When players can't handle complex plays because of inexperience or lack of talent, that's what happens. This is nothing new.

When players are not coached and put in the best position to make plays, then they look inexperienced or don't have talent. Back when we had a more competent coaching staff, some guy named Earthwind played defense for us and looked competent.

It's not true because I say it is. It's true because it's true, and being outcoached in an individual game now and again is irrelevant to the discussion.

I didn't realize "individual game" is another term for 3 years.

Yes, they suck in man and zone right now. Is that really a suprise given what's been happening in that secondary in terms of who's been playing and why?

McCourty looked great his first year. Then regressed. Arrington looked pretty decent last year, now he looks like trash. Chung looked halfway decent in 2010, now he looks like poop. Why are these players regressing? Are they losing talent?

Tell that to the person who was denigrating the Bills offensive talent.

So two players and a bottom tier QB equals 31 points and 480 yards of offense? That's the difference between our defense and their offense?