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The Official Definition of "Victory" in Iraq Thread

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by shmessy, Jul 29, 2007.

  1. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    Please someone. Enlighten me.

    We hear from the administration about "winning" and "losing" in Iraq so much, however, I hadn't heard a definition of "winning" (although I pretty much know what "losing" would entail there).

    This is an opportunity for posters who support the surge and our continued investment in the Iraq theatre to share the vision of what our long-term strategic goal is for this continued action in Iraq.
  2. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    You asked this question in another recent thread:
    http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showthread.php?t=57878&page=2

    I have asked it, too. Never got a response that wasn't a circular argument, begged the question, or was a verbatum spewing of a White House talking point.

    *crickets chirping*
  3. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    I get an equal response when I ask what the anti war gang would do to rid the world of terrorists. Neither one has an easy answer. Maybe it's like the question of pornography that Belichick likes to refer to : you know it when you see it.

    Anyway, it's too easy to pick on the war or the way it's been run without giving a complete answer on how you would solve the problem.
  4. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    Well, we've fulfilled the "begging the question" portion of the list. At least BF gave it a stab, which is more than I expected.

    Anyone up for a good spewing of White House talking points or maybe a circular argument?
  5. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Ask Obooma & Pant Suit Hillary how they will handle the Muslim Terrorists we are at war with and they will hold a debate on sex.

    I have already answerd the question, I will try it again, WHEN YOU SEE ALL THE LITTLE IRAQI KINDERGARTEN CHILDREN BEING TAUGHT HOW TO "DON A CONDOM" AND HOW TO MASTURBATE, WHEN MADONNA HOLDS ONE OF HER CROTCH RUBBING ABBA DABBA PRISON DOG LEASH CONCERTS, WHEN YOU SEE BRITNEY SPEARS & PARIS HILTON DRIVING DRUNK AROUND BAGHDAD WITH NO UNDERWEAR ON, THEN YOU WILL KNOW WE HAVE WON THE WAR.

    God Is Great
    Death To America
    God Willing We Will Kill The Great Satan
    :bricks:
  6. Pujo

    Pujo Rookie

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    So is the logic, "If you don't have a good idea, try anything!"??

    Surely one should be able to answer what a war will accomplish, and how we'll know whether we've succeeded, independent of anything else (like how we'll defeat the terrorists).
  7. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    All through his failed campaign John Fonda Kerry kept repeating over and over "I Have A Plan, I Have A Plan" to this day nobody knows what that plan was, not even the little Critter he's married to.
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2007
  8. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    I'm not defending it - maybe the people who voted for the war, on both sides of the aisle, should have asked the question and received the answer before going in.

    I'm just saying any idiot can ask this simplistic question - but if they don't have a good solution to the overall problem then they're just as useless as my answer.
  9. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    No official will ever say it, but 'victory' in Iraq means we established one or several permanent military bases in Iraq, and also influenced the oil contracts or oil pipelines to our benefit.

    Anything after that is just sweet words to confuse and trick the American public.
  10. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    I totally agree with the first sentence.

    No one's calling you an idiot for not being able to answer a simplistic question. It is a simple question, but not a simplistic one. The answer is complicated, of course, if the answer is not, "Remove all personnel and equipment as soon as possible and let the Iraqis figure out their situation with the help of their neighbors".

    You still haven't answered the question, as predicted. And for a second time, you beg the question in your answer. Try to answer the question instead of falling on the old defense of "In the absence of a defense, ridicule the opponent".
  11. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    After We Win You Will See How We Won
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2007
  12. Pujo

    Pujo Rookie

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    Oh sure, I'm sure you would have given Clinton the same open-ended pass. "Trust us," says the government, "we'll take care of everything."
  13. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    Given that I wasn't in favor of THIS war to begin with, I don't actually have to answer the question :D
  14. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    Oh, right....never mind.:bricks:
  15. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    That's so true. Since Kennedy was assassinated, we haven't seen a single president other than Reagan handle foreign policy well. Reagan fu-ked up in Nicaragua, but other than that he seemed to handle the middle east very well...mainly by cutting and running. The dance he and Gorby did was very impressive, too.
  16. PATSNUTme

    PATSNUTme Paranoid Homer Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    Here you go Shmes.

    Winning would be leaving Iraq as a secure and fairly stable govenment that is not under the control of Iran, Syria or the Saudis. Winning would be leaving Iraq as a state that does not harbor terrorist or where terrorist cannot operate freely.

    We should pull out, except a small force, when those conditions are met.

    I did ask those who want to pull out now what the consequenses of that would be. I never got an answer. And, there will be consequenses.
  17. PressCoverage

    PressCoverage Banned

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    interesting... let me ask you then: if we couldn't secure the nation's borders from insurgency, what makes you believe the Iraqis will police their borders from terrorists?...
  18. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    Wrong. I have the answer. Increase our focus in Afghanistan and covertly in Northwest Pakistan past the measly level we currently have. The REAL terrorists (against the US anyway) are there. The REAL Al Qaeda (not the fanclub version that uses its name in Iraq).

    You write about Iraq as if that is where we must focus against the terrorists who threaten the US. Where is the surge in Afghanistan?

    My concern is that the administration is counting on the public to not know the difference. (What's scary is I'm not sure the administration quite understands the difference either).
  19. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    How long do you figure that will take?

    I have dreams of world peace, too. I would love to see Iraqis live in peace. It would be great to see them fight for and win their peace with a stable government, free from predators and terrorists. Trouble is, they're in the center of the middle east. I thought the Saudis were our friends. Can't we get them to ensure the stability of Iraq, maybe with the help of Israel, Jordan, Iran, and Turkey...even Syria?

    How many American troops have to get dismembered or killed before your goal is obtained. Time is a factor, don't you think? What's your timeframe?
    Also, what is the reason behind your goal? What is our moral obligation? Is it because Bush started and fu-ked up the invasion and occupation, and he says we should stay, so that part's right, but the invasion part's wrong?

    I'm looking for a comprehensive plan and justification. You can't say we should do something without considering all of the implications.
  20. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    I never said anyone HAS to answer the question. I was just searching if anyone knew.

    The administration and the right keeps on using the words "victory" and "defeat" in Iraq. I was just looking to see if anyone knew what the hell they are talking about when those terms are so often used.

    If those terms are so often used, there should be some meaning to them, no?
  21. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    Thanks, Patsnutme. I appreciate you giving a definition.

    My concern, at this point, is that the scenario of which you envision was more reality under Saddam than it is today with 160,000 of our troops there after $600 billion dollars of our tax money and 3,600 of our best and most courageous young people dead.

    Now, I will answer your question. I envision the consequences of the US pulling out of Iraq today versus in 20 years will be exactly the SAME concerning Iraq.

    However, it will benefit the US immeasurably in terms of being capable of attacking the REAL Al Qaeda in Afghanistan/Northwest Pakistan, improving our economy, having the money to shore up our still pathetic homeland security, ports and infrastructure, while perhaps having a few billion dollars left over to help our domestic industries develop a comprehensive national infrastructure for the public delivery of the new alternative energies. (after all, where does Bin-Laden, etc. get all their money - -from the medical industry?)
  22. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    Bin Laden may be in Afghanistan/Pakistan but the terrorists are all over. They were before the war and they are now (maybe moreso now but they were before). There's really only one way to get rid of them and that one way isn't acceptable to most people. Short of that . . . we're stuck with them.
  23. PATSNUTme

    PATSNUTme Paranoid Homer Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    You mention Iraq under Saddam. Of coarse that is in the past not in future which is what I thought the question was. I do maintain that here is one person who could have stopped the whole Iraq war in it's tracks. That was Saddam. He never came clean on his WMD prgrams and by that I mean, he never told when, where and how he destroyed them, if he did.

    I still think. even after all that has happened, we can make this work. If it doesn't work then the consequesnces are dire for the security of the mid-east and the US.

    But I'm now done with this here and on to football. Just thought I'd give you the answer to your question.
  24. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    I agree with you. Saddam being completely clueless regarding the resolve of the US regarding the WMD question was his main downfall. He miscalculated in August 1990 and he miscalculated in March 2003. He was an evil, inhuman dictator whom I do not mourn.

    As an Intelligence Analyst for the NSA during the Reagan and Bush I administrations, I most definitely believe we did it right in Desert Storm. This time around, from the beginning, it has been painful for me to watch this car crash in slow motion. In fact it's excruciating for most people who have studied the Middle East, its history and its strategic dynamics.

    In 1990-1992 we attacked the actual threat, not the sideshow..... and got the hell out.

    In 2003-present, we have been attacking the sideshow (the militarily toothless, post-sanction version of Saddam, or "Al Qaeda in Iraq") instead of the REAL AL QAEDA or Hezbollah.


    I'm not a Democrat or a Republican. I'm a Meritocrat.
  25. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    This isn't going to happen, and I actually think our leaders know this. They WANT to keep a presence in the region, and establish a sh*tload of military bases in Iraq to keep our tentacles in the M.E.

    Talk of a pullout is silly, we are going to be in Iraq in a significant way for another half decade, at least.
  26. reflexblue

    reflexblue PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    IT IS WHAT IT IS.YOU'LL KNOW WHEN WE KNOW.
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2007
  27. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    Bullsh-t!
    It's not silly. Talk of a long-term presence in the ME is stupid. It's patriotic to talk about a pullout. Our kids are over there acting as mercenaries for the oil companies- not defending the US from enemies foreign or domestic. We are making enemies.
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2007
  28. Real World

    Real World Rookie

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    Please. People in here have explained it to you over and over again. If you don't like what people say, then say so, but don't ridicule what some of us have had to say.
  29. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    Actually, I have seen only one serious response from those that support the surge in this thread - from Patsnutme - and I thanked him for his thoughtful contribution.

    Whether or not I agree with someone's definition of "vistory" in Iraq, my search is for the definition of exactly what this administration is calling "victory".
  30. Pujo

    Pujo Rookie

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