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The Non-Issue that Should Be an Issue

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by patsfan13, Aug 11, 2008.

  1. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Great article please check out the link:

    http://mises.org/story/3020


    The pols avoid the real issue, neither is proposing a real solution.
  2. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Rookie

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    government size has GROWN 60% under the Bush administration.

    http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2003/Bush-Government-Grows4sep03.htm

    Department of homeland security....
    Department of Faith base initiatives....

    I thought Republicans wanted less governement? Oh......

    I keep forgetting that there is no difference between a washingtion Democrat and a washington Republican...

    the constant campaign.
  3. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    Are you the same Joker who posted this :

    http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showpost.php?p=959316&postcount=17

    about non going Partisan for no reason ?

    LMAO. Partisan hack.
  4. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    On topic, I have no doubt we could cut government across the board by 10% as a start before looking at entire departments and programs that could go whammo.
  5. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Rookie

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    YES that is me....

    not sure if you read my ENTIRE post...after all...it was over 10 words long....

    Partisanship vs. political philosophy....

    "I keep forgetting that there is no difference between a washingtion Democrat and a washington Republican...

    the constant campaign."

    DEM v. REPUBLICAN = Same people

    CONSERVATIVE V. LIBERAL = different people
  6. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Rookie

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    Admin costs, and $400 hammers is a good place to start.
  7. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    There's not much savings from $400 hammers as those stories are the exceptions.

    Start with a 10% salary decrease for all government employees. Dare them to leave. And, yes, I work for the DoD so that includes me.
  8. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Rookie

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    would you leave? in this job market?

    I think there is a lot more crappy gov't spending on things other than a labor force. How does cutting workers pay ... HELP?
    You'd have more people uneployed, and not spending money in our economy. Seems it would be more effective to cut the KRAP out of the budget, and keep people working, and spending.
  9. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    That's my point. You could get a lot of savings there.

    That was ONE example of a start. Everyone wants to cut but all they come up with are the obscure examples of $400 hammers and $1000 toilet seats that would yield no real savings.
  10. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Rookie

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    by my count....if you cut one of each....thats $1400 right there.

    Personally I own 5 hammers, I'd gladly mail the government one for a $400 tax credit. maybe we should look into the wartime philosoophy of.....SACRIFICE....

    and develop a rosie the riveter philosophy of our workforce?

    I think its because our 'enemy' is faceless and slightly harder to rally around.


    $h!t...I'm drifting now....

    anyway...where do I mail that hammer?
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2008
  11. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    We should always look for ways to make programs more efficient, but a lot of that has been done over the years (and I'll actually give the Republicans credit for that). Once we get out of Iraq, we can begin devoting more resources to our deteriorating infrastructure and national health care. While our government may well be bloated, one would have to go through every program and every line item to identify where savings can be made. No doubt, there are programs that can be made more efficient and there are programs that need additional resources. For instance, I'm sure many conservatives would support increased investments in WMDs while liberals would support investments in programs that feed hungry children.
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2008
  12. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Rookie

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    I'd say feeding HUNGRY children makes more sense than feeding kids that have already eaten.
  13. Real World

    Real World Rookie

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    See, Patters is happy about the spending because it simply mean more money for socialists to realocate to welfare programs, should Obama win the election. Patters will whine about defecits and the size of government when it behooves him, but truly, deep down in size, the bigger the better in his eyes.

    I wouldn't cut workers pay 10%. I'd instead cut 10% of the workers. We all know that the gubmit hires 20 people to the work of 10 (being generous here). The problem is that government can't possibly afford all that it promises. It must be reduced in size and scope. Difficult decisions have to be made, and unfortunately, no one wants to make them. Including the voting block.
  14. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    If you took the time to read the article you would have seen to pubbies taken to task for their spending. Too bad you are reflexively partisan.

    BTW many conservatives here have gone after Bush and the pubbie congress for their spending.
  15. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Patters idea of cutting government is nationalizing health care, once a marxist always a marxist.
  16. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Rookie

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    Partisan?

    I'm not registered to any party, never given a dime to a democrat or a republican...

    They are the same party in my mind, so I'm not sure what you mean. Again, I'd point you to my follow up on the same 'call-out' by BelichickFan....
  17. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Rookie

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    REGULATION!!!!

    energy, healthcare etc.


    The free market is why we are broke, the system didn't work. Nice experiment...but we are being outbid, and outsourced by the rest of the world....Thanks Reganomics...TRICKLE THIS!!!!

    I know what you fools defnse is about Trickle down....how rich people tend to be the ones who have jobs to offer people. Well, rich peopole also like to STAY RICH.

    Gordon Gekko has gotten into the philosophy of the 1 half of 1%.....

    'Greed is Good'

    http://www.grooveking.com/blog/uploaded_images/g-738997.jpg
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2008
  18. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    There hasn't been a free market in medicine since medicare was passed where have you been.

    We have no free market for energy, the congress (read dems and RINO's) have blocked drilling, coal, nukes, refineries and on and on, where have you been?
  19. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Rookie

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    whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?????????

    so.....somehow our drug companies and hospitals setting the price is, in your mind, REGULATION?

    ask yourself how a drug, made by an american company costs 20 times more in the US than it does in Germany? Is it our....(cough) REGULATED MARKET? Hospitals compete for cutomers based on service in ALL regulated markets overseas and elsewhere. The only place they DON'T is in America....where they can get whatever price they frickin want...because the MARKET IS NOT REGULATED!!!!!

    medicare????? I don't have medicare....so I DON'T MEDI-CARE about that kind of regulation. We all know that government controled healthcare is regulate...but thats not what we are talking about, are we? we are talking about EVERY american being covered. And to do that at a cost efective level, REQUIRES regulation, or you, me, and the government gets ripped off. Since the insurers and drug companies make so much more in an unregulated market...it stands to their benefit to keep it like it is, and pay lawmakers to agree....which they have done. They then go to the networks, buy adtime, and influence execs who tell the talking heads to tell YOU that this thing is regulated because medicare is.....

    its a frickin JOKE....seriously other nations LAUGH at us....

    I've been here.....what prop-news hosts do you watch with commercials for 'restless leg syndrome'?

    Deregulated energy is the same thing...but I will agree that when it became deregulated...the dems were in control of congress....That loophole (Enron....not a loophole, but a law) was exploited by a republican congress, and now is not being enforced by a partisan Justice Departmnet.


    THATS where I've been.
  20. Stokes

    Stokes Rookie

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    Patters, saying savings on Iraq is going to solve our fiscal problems just doesn't wash. The fact is that our entitlement spending is outpacing revenues, and will bankrupt the government if left unchanged.

    Count me among the many conservatives disgusted with how Bush and the Republicans in Congress spent when they had their chance to actually reduce the size of government.

    The problem we face is resolved one of 2 ways, raise taxes or cut services. I only see tax hikes as a temporary solution, since all we'd be doing is pushing the date at which the programs become insolvent a few more years into the future. Patters I know sees higher contribution to these programs as the solution, I'm on the other side, I think it is time for a real evaluation of the role of government in people's lives.
  21. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Rookie

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    :confused:
    a demoralized government labor force is a great idea:confused:

    how about a major Irq war that will cost a ton to withdraw from.

    the gov't needs to just stop giving away money they don't have. it's that simple. if they are going to donate money to countries then somethig should be gotten in return to some extent.
  22. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Rookie

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    let's just face it. the divide between rich and poor is going to continue to grow.

    what's going to stop it?

    in this next century we'll come to a breaking point like all cultures do like the mayans, romans, etc. how do you get people to stop consuming and taking more than they need? if you figure that out i think you'll create a resource utopia
  23. Real World

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    The free market didn't work? So I take it socialism does? Maybe Communism? Most would argue that it's the expanse of government that isn't working. The welfare state is what's broken.
  24. Real World

    Real World Rookie

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    The divide will ALWAYS grow. It's simply mathematics & common sense.
  25. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Rookie

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    that's my point and that's what has been the downfall of societies throughout the course of history. so when's our expiration date coming ?
  26. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I certainly support efforts to reign in spending, but also the fact is that the government needs to compete with the private sector to attract qualified employees and the government provides services to 250 million people. I think taxes will have to increase or we'll have to cut programs that help the needy. Let's remember that black people, for instance, were excluded from the massive government programs in the 1940s and 50s that helped millions of Americans get education, jobs, and other benefits, and develop our country as the power it is today. These programs were widely supported. Of course, back then it was our tax dollars were going to help white people, and clearly many conservatives don't care much about helping blacks and Hispanics. We need to invest to create a equality for all. I think it will lead to a safer nation with a better quality of life. And, no, I'm not suggesting you or patsfan13 are bigots. I'm simply arguing for fairness.
  27. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Rookie

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    I think the US has a pretty good quality of life. How do you perceive it as not being so?
  28. DarrylS

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    Here are some suggestions that would save a boatload of money:

    1. Eliminate the Dept of Ed and restore it to the states
    2. Replace the IRS with a simple tax system, Forbes, consumption or whatever and get rid of all these bureaucrats.
    3. Combine the R&D of all 3 branches of military into one system.. to avoid replication and to stop feeding the military industrial complex.
    4. Review all the contracts in Iraq, to insure we are getting what we paid for...hold the contractors liable for any shortcomings.

    Cutting salaries of civil servants is not the answer, all it will do is cause dissention and it usually effects the clerical staff the most... pare the waste down and get rid of all of the political appointees.. if someone really wanted change this is where they would start.
  29. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The poverty rate is quite high.

    [​IMG]

    But just as important, there are obvious divisions quality of life between blacks, Hispanics, and whites, as measured by income, family wealth, lifespan, and so on. Much of this has to do with the federally funded programs that generally were not available to minorities 40 years ago and to family wealth passed down through the generations.

    [​IMG]

    I think fighting poverty is a good investment to improve the quality of life for all Americans because poverty is a major cause of crime, drug use, medical costs, and so on.
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2008
  30. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    In these times when states are trying to shift money from public schools to private schools, I think the Dept. of Ed is especially important. But, beyond that the Dept. helps provide college loan guarantees, anti-drug programs, programs to promote the English language, teacher training, as well as substantial funding for individuals with disabilities. Since schools are one of the primary vehicles through which our national values are established, it seems to be a Dept. of Ed is a good idea.

    The IRS costs a relatively modest $11 billion, and Forbes or consumption taxes are likely to lead to massive cuts in programs. What do you think should be cut? If we go with a consumption tax, how will you ensure it will be collected in cash transactions?

    I agree with your other points.

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