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The new fear: Electric car 'range anxiety'

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Holy Diver, Oct 18, 2010.

  1. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Rookie

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  2. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Banned

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    Uh, how is this a load of crap? I think that anyone buying a car would consider the car's range as a MAJOR factor in their decision making process. I know I will never buy a car that can only travel 100 miles round trip.
  3. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Imagine rich democrats riding around in these things.

    Imagine Patches Kenndy driving around Drunk in one of them.......:rofl:
  4. PatriotsReign

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    Like you, I was very, VERY suspect of "restless leg syndrome" and I was joking about it when somone got pissed and told me, "don't joke about things you don't understand. I didn't sleep for years until that medication came out"

    Whatever....it's prolly something else that make people's legs restless. But now I know I could be wrong.
  5. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Rookie

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    Are you afraid of your gas cars range at this point? Is it a fear of yours?

    who the fukc is afraid of a cars range and the anxiety it might create....WTF?

    all cars could run out of fuel at any time, most people have run out of gas, but "Range Anxiety" has never been a problem....nor a real fear.
  6. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Rookie

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    I thought you drove a Lambo?
  7. Wolfpack

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    Uh, call me crazy, but no I am not afraid of my gas car's range. You see, those of us who reside in the adult world know of these things called GAS STATIONS all over the place whereby we may refuel our cars at our convenience and in less than 5 minutes.
    I would think any adult who actually owns a car with a range of fewer than 100 miles would be concerned with it.

    Oh, and please adhere to forum rules. Deliberately circumventing the langugage filter is a violation.
    Little child, do you actually drive cars? Newsflash: A gasoline powered automobile does not "run out of fuel at any time." There is a very easy way to monitor when your car will run out of fuel. I know I get 400 miles per full tank, and to make things even easier for the simpletons who think their cars can "run out of fuel at any time," there is even a little light that comes on to warn me when I have about 50 miles remaining.
    I guess I associate with a smarter group of people than you because I have driven about 600,000 miles in my life (yes I am serious) and I have never once run out of gas. It's a pretty idiot-proof system, but I guess you've proven that the engineers still have work to do to make it even more idiot-proof.
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2010
  8. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Banned

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    I drive the Lambo on Tuesdays or whenever I have a date with a girl who appeared in at least 2 out of the following 3: Victoria's Secret catalog, Maxim Magazine and Playboy. But it's got a 26 gallon gas tank, so I am able to get more than 100 miles per fill-up.
  9. Real World

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    This is one of the biggest problems with electric vehicles, their range, and how to charge them. Imagine you get "approximately" 100 miles on a full charge. Well, my commute to work is 13 miles each way. What you also have to factor in is the conditions where you get that 100 miles. Hot or cold weather can affect that. Road conditions being wet, or icy maybe. How about traffic, or city driving versus highway. All the stops and goes of traffic lights, stop signs, and bumper to bumper traffic, could mean my 26 mile round trip, is actually akin to 50 or 60 to the car's battery. Who knows. It might be worse than that. How about if I need to stop somewhere, or drive to someone's house during, or after work. The point is, 100 might not always be 100, and road conditions aren't always predictable. Who wants to drive around never knowing if they'll make it? Imagine being stuck on 93 North in January, cuz your battery died? 100 miles simply isn't enough for most people.
  10. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Banned

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    Boy, that would sure make the commuters happy. I can just hear traffic-on-the-threes now: "And travelling north of the city on I-93, there's a 45 minute delay because some dumbnut's electric car ran out of juice..." :D :D
  11. sdaniels7114

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    Screw gas stations, why not just jun an extension cord out your window?
  12. Patsfanin Philly

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    I thought the major issue was whether so many electric cars needing to be charged would strain the capacity of the current electricity grid......
    What do I know?......That was rhetorical, not designed for an answer by some wise guys....
  13. Harry Boy

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    The future is "flying cars" run by a "nuclear pellet" the size of a Pea, one pellet will run the Flying Car for over a hundred years, the Old Middle East Oil Barons will be wandering the desert with their Camels and Donkeys and they will still be Cutting each others heads off and Stoning their women to death.

    Remember Where You Heard It
    God Willing
  14. The Brandon Five

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    If you don't see the difference between a range of 25 to 100 miles and a range of 300 miles, I can't help you.
  15. patsfan13

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    The real issue with Electric cars are the rare earth metals needed for the batteries. They are very toxic and available (the rare earth metals) only from China at this time. The chinese said their supplies could be depleted within 20 years.
  16. The Brandon Five

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    Whoopsie:

    China Said to Widen Its Embargo of Minerals - NY Times
  17. PatriotsReign

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    Good! I prefer to rely upon on China as little as possible.
  18. PatsFanInVa

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    GE seems to be really aggressive in marketing their wattstation. All their images are interesting to me - they try to display a U.S. charging infrastructure as already built, I guess to help us with our ecomagination, right?

    Regardless, if they can get you a full charge in 3-4 hours, they'd be a boon for the "range anxious".

    I think only the majority of our driving that we do in commuting is solved by an electric car at present. I'm not driving to Boston in one. But can I drive downtown and back, every day, week in and week out? Yep, easy. And enough public charging stations make electrics a "doable" solution for, for example, apartment buildings - or to make your parking garage more desireable than the one next door. When you're getting 15 bucks a day for parking in the first place, the Kwh electric charges are not that big a deal. More likely, the garage will just charge extra for charging (wattstations are available w/credit card readers.)

    I don't know why a GE would bring this product to market if they don't think there's a market to bring it to. Make sure there's a station at each end, and guy who'd like to go to a suburb around the beltway and back doesn't sweat the commute. You effectively double commute range, because you're not going anywhere while you're at work. I don't think anybody drives across country stopping for 3 hours then driving 2, but that's not the part of internal combustion fossil fuel use you're trying to replace.

    Shai Agassi's idea of charging stations seems like it would work in that scenario - where you have replaceable batteries, and you just drive through after a hundred miles and swap 'em out, then the station charges the swapped out batteries at its leisure.
  19. PatsFanInVa

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    As to rare earth metals, do you mean lithium or others?
  20. The Brandon Five

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    Obviously they believe they are going to get a return on their investment, but keep in mind that "clean energy" (where does electricity come from?) is heavily subsidized by the Federal government. Alternative energy is one of the pre-selected winners in the new economy.
  21. patsfan13

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    There are millions in gov subsidies involved, see the relationship between the GE CEO and the administration.

    GE BTW has closed down their domestic incandescent bulb plants and are making CF bulbs in China. Government meddling destroying more US jobs.
  22. PatsFanInVa

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    Right, there are incentives for clean energy in various forms.

    So for both B5 and also 13, clean energy is a "pre-selected winner," as opposed to fossil fuels -- for which we deploy American troops and lose American life. But no, there's never been any government action supporting the fossil fuel industry. And railroad land grants didn't help get railroads built. Nooooo of course not.

    The point here is not that in a non-existent America in which the free market never has national policy incentives built in, clean energy would happen anyway -- though, one would hope, it eventually would.

    The point is more that this is standard procedure particularly when it is evident that the nation has an interest in moving forward in a given direction.

    As to where electricity comes from, the incentivized cleaner sources, currently way down the list in bang-for-the-buck terms, are also incentivized to have their infrastructures built and worked into the "supply chain" for KwH. We have already seen the dirtier sources (e.g. coal) having to "clean up" to attempt to compete, because if you're getting 20% wind energy as a target, that market share has to come from somewhere. The fact that the market for electricity in general is set to become larger takes some of the sting out for a company like GE. For a company like BP, of course, the incentive is to diversify as best you can - hence the little sunflower logo (while they're spewing crude into the gulf of mexico.) They're also growing algae, I take it.

    But I was interested in the whole "rare earths" argument. I take it we're referring to lithium, though if there are other "rare earths" involved it would be interesting to know. It would be great to know, since we claim there is a "20 year reserve" of "rare earths":

    - which "rare earth" we mean (lithium?)
    - where the numbers come from in this "limited supply" argument
    - what we actually lose of the "rare earth" with the life of a battery. If the rare earth we mean is lithium (seems like I've never heard of a rare polymer in a LiPo battery,) what can be recovered in the recycling process? Or is all the lithium gone?

    The "rare earth" lithium, indeed, the whole battery, is a storage technology, not a fuel. The big advantage of fossil fuels is that after some refining, you stick it in the engine and go. Electricity is trickier to just stick in a motor. You have to figure out how to carry it around. But the battery is more analogous to the gas tank than the gas. The argument seems to be that we can't make enough "gas tanks," something that seems to demand closer examination (if only by the same guy who thinks we're in a global ice age whenever there's a snow storm.)

    Bazinga.

    PFnV
  23. PatsFanInVa

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    Never mind, did it for ya.

    Lithium - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I refer the reader to the "Occurrence" section.

    Weird that one of the three elements present at the big bang would be so rare :) But I guess you don't mean lithium?

    Do you mean lithium in our most preferred compound form is rare? It doesn't naturally occur in elemental form, so maybe there's a specific compound you like the best, and therefore define as one we must automatically become dependent on?

    Or is lithium not the "rare earth" we're talking about?

    PFnV
  24. PatsFanInVa

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    Fascinating. The common source of lithium for batteries... is brine.

    Absolute Nonsense From Korea About The Global Lithium Supply - GLG News

    So while digging lithium out of mines in some compound form in China might play some part in the supply chain of lithium, for the stuff we're talking about, evidently we get it from....

    Freaking seawater.

    Epic. Freakin. Fail.

    PFnV
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2010
  25. patsfan13

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    Lithium is only one of many rare earth elements used by industry these days.


    The government doesn't need to subdize energy development, in the case of inefficent energy yes but to become energy independent no no subsidies are need . However currently government is doing many thing to prevent us from becoming energy independent. That is the problem. We should be importing no oil.
  26. DarrylS

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    Your boys the Koch Bros.. seem to be finding a whole bunch of subsidies all over the place...

    The Koch Bros. and Corporate Welfare - 1. SOCIALIST SHIPBUILDING | The New York Observer
  27. patsfan13

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    The subsidies aren't documented in the srticle if another government was dumb enough to subsidize a ship that is their problem.

    For casual readers of the thresd "my Boys" didn't ask or get a dime from US TAXPAYERS, epic fail once again.
  28. PatsFanInVa

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    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/04/business/04bptax.html?_r=1

    one example:

    Last edited: Oct 23, 2010
  29. PatsFanInVa

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    So if lithium isn't the problematic "rare earth" (well known to be a misnomer, but useful for this excercise to imply scarcity,) which one is, or which ones are? Since we know we extract the lithium from brine, why don't you hook me up with some estimate of a necessary "rare earth" that we're running out of?

    Let's see a link at least.

    Since you're so certain we're running out of something it would be useful to know what it is, and why you think we're running out of it.

    PFnV
  30. patsfan13

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