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The Mankins paradox

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by patfanken, Aug 25, 2010.

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  1. patfanken

    patfanken Rookie

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    I've been following this melodrama just like everyone else but there are 2 questions that I never see answered. I'd appreciate someone or everyone explaining it to me.

    1. Mankins has stated he is all set with money. He has saved all his money from the first 5 years of his career (about $8MM IIRC), and doesn't need the money. YET, he's been offered about $7MM/yr and is pissed that it isn't $8.5MM. IF money doesn't matter, then why is he pissed?

    2. In his own statement he claimed that the Pats promised to take care of him after the uncapped year. Yet "after the uncapped year" isn't until 2/11. So did he misspeak, or does he just not know what he is talking about. Because the Pats DID offer to take care of THIS off season to the tune of making him one of the top 3 OGs in the league.

    3. Now we are starting to hear the the Pats promised to make him the TOP paid G in the league, yet no source has been mentioned on this. Is it true, or is it just another example of mediot speculation.

    4. If Mankins is EVER going to get my respect back, he is going to have to make clear, EXACTLY what he thought the Pats promised and what they actually delivered. He is going to have to state for the record that he thinks he's the BEST OG in the league, and wants to be paid as the best. Anything less isn't going to do it. THEN I might disagree with this position, but at least I would know where he stands,and I can respect that.
  2. Gwedd

    Gwedd PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    As I have postulated before, I am convinced that the problem is with Mankins' agent. I don't think he's been up front with Mankins about what the Patriots have offered and/or he's withholding other information hoping to fatten his own wallet.

    Mankins seems to me to be a straight-up guy, and the Patriots are square dealers. That. to me, says the problem is in the middle, and the middleman is Mankins' agent.
  3. PATRIOTSFANINPA

    PATRIOTSFANINPA Rookie

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    1) To Mankins its not about the money,its about prestige for what he thinks is being the best OG in the NFL...Personally I do not feel he is #1..definately top 5 but not #1

    3) The Patriots NEVER promise to pay any player the top salary in the league that is not how this team works or runs the show,I don't believe they ever told him he would be highest paid - he would be lying about that IMO.
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2010
  4. Willie55

    Willie55 Rookie

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    I'll take a stab at #1, I'm not sure about the other three. It's about the perceived respect he's getting, not about the money. Jahri Evans is being paid somewhere in the $8 million/year range by the Saints. Mankins thinks he the best guard in the NFL and shouldn't have to settle for less than what Evans got. And by the Pats not offering him more than Evans they have disrespected him and his ability.

    In the words of Mo Vaughn - it isn't about the money.
  5. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Banned

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    +1.
    My theory on this is pretty simple: First of all, I doubt the Patriots told Mankins much of anything directly. Any statements they made were undoubtedly made to Mankins' agent - and therein lies the problem. The agent is probably not exactly feeding Mankins information in a pure, unbiased, 100% accurate manner. He wants Mankins to see the Patriots as the villains.

    So it's clear from Mankins' own statements that there is some confusion on his part. Mankins probably believes what he is saying, but that don't make it true.
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2010
  6. spacecrime

    spacecrime Rookie

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    :confused: It's not about the money. It's about being paid more than everyone else. Okay.
  7. DropKickFlutie

    DropKickFlutie Rookie

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    Bill Simmons' most recent article goes into why John Hannah held out before, because he was unhappy with his contract and felt its amount conveyed respect.

    Back to Mankins. Published reports say he was offered 35M over 5 years, after the RFA year of about 3M. That puts him at basically 6M per year for 6 years, which doesn't even make him a top 10 paid guard. This was after Mankins played out his crappy 6 year deal, while others have held out and gotten paid before their rookie deals finished.

    This isn't just Mankins, but Brady too, the Pats play hard ball with EVERYONE. The Pats even tried to get out of giving Brady a 20K bonus in his 2nd contract which he made them put back in their 3rd contract.

    Last year with Wilfork the Pats played a similar game, leaking reports early in the season of what Wilfork supposedly turned down, to make him seem greedy.
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2010
  8. Patspsycho

    Patspsycho Rookie

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    It's not about the money, it's about the respect. Mankins is very old school, and apparently feels disrespected because he believes the Patriots misled him. It apparently is a matter of honor to him.
  9. Patspsycho

    Patspsycho Rookie

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    That is a very very stupid thing to do. I have otherwise had high respect for what this organization has achieved, but this kind of move is completely boneheaded.
  10. PatsWickedPissah

    PatsWickedPissah PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Exactly. And given even mild mannered Brady's negative reaction at the time it's not hard to see how a guy with less of a sense of humor (Logan) could get wicked pissed over perceived BS like that.
  11. DropKickFlutie

    DropKickFlutie Rookie

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    One note in general about playing hard ball with everyone and trying to create a strong middle class on the team:
    This strategy worked best in the early 2000's because many teams had cap trouble and there were a lot of quality guys let go into the free agent markets. A fiscally well managed team could then get a lot of bargains, which the Pats did from 2000-2004.

    However, look at the avg player salaries from 2000 to now, compared with how fast the cap itself has grown from 2000 to now. The cap has far outpaced avg salary growth, by doubling since 2000 while salaries haven't caught up.

    Most teams haven't had cap trouble for a long time now, and the same strategy that worked for the Pats before isn't really a big competitive advantage anymore. Since 2006 the Colts have won more in head to head matchups, and have won more with a totally different spending strategy.

    In the current league, it makes sense to pay up and keep your top guys. There isn't anybody good in the free agent markets that one can get at a bargain anymore, it's more like one has to overpay for anybody with talent now.
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2010
  12. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

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    Except Simmons was wrong. Hannah insisted that he and Leon Gray negotiate as a team, hamstringing a football team well known to have financial troubles to spend a very high proportion of their total payroll on 2/5 of their line.

    They finally did re$pect Hannah and managed to make do at tackle with a high draft pick (Holloway).
  13. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Banned

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    It does not make sense to cave in to every player under contract who wants more money than what he is due. Please note that when I say "under contract" I am including any player still playing under the terms of a deal he signed, or with the restrictions allowed by the CBA, such as restricted free agency, tender offers, franchising, etc.

    Mankins seems to need it drilled into his head that he is not a free agent, and the Patriots are under no obligation whatsoever to treat him like one.
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2010
  14. PATRIOTSFANINPA

    PATRIOTSFANINPA Rookie

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    Correction...I meant prestige...a little error there on my part :bricks:
  15. DropKickFlutie

    DropKickFlutie Rookie

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    Actually even on the Patriots it has been shown that a player can force his way out of town and get a big payday.

    Mankins seems exactly the type of guy who would not play at all, and it WILL negatively hurt the Patriots.

    I would be pissed too if I played out a crappy 6 year deal (while players in the same cohort were re-signed earlier), then the team RFA'd me, then offered me something that two years from now won't even be top 10 guard money when you average it out over 6 years.
  16. crowell33

    crowell33 Rookie

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    "Its always about the money, and even when its not about the money, its about the money"...........Tommy Caffee
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2010
  17. DropKickFlutie

    DropKickFlutie Rookie

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    The Pats approach with Mankins has been similar to what they did with Vince Wilfork last year. They offered both less money than what the top 3 players at their position were offering, and leaked it early to the media that reasonable offers were made but the players were too greedy to accept it. It then gets fans on management's side, to demonize the player for holding out for an extra mill or two.

    However, the reactions by Wilfork and Mankins have been totally opposite. Wilfork kept his cool, didn't really speak or comment, and it all ended up well. Brady is following a similar path. Mankins basically flipped out, but I can see where he's coming from.
  18. Garbanza

    Garbanza Rookie

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    I rather doubt he's going to throw away a year of service. I fully expect him to report week ten. That said - screw him! I would hate to see him come back week ten - not play - get his year of service. Go get your year of service elsewhere. I have a good feeling that the Pats are working diligently on a trade.
  19. robertweathers

    robertweathers Rookie

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    Agree 100%. What would be interesting to know is the feedback the potential trade partners have on the Pats asking price and their corresponding counter-offers.

    I'm certain that they went down the road of offering an Asante-type scenario and he said no (or vice-versa perhaps).
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2010
  20. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Banned

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    Oh yeah? Such as who? Please don't say Deion Branch. Ty Law tried to force his way out of town, and failed miserably. Richard Seymour got traded (which honestly is what wouldn't surprise me from Mankins) finshed out his old contract, and signed a 1 year deal (not exactly a big payday). Asante Samuel left after 1 year of being franchised so he essentially played out his rookie contract (plus 1 year) then left as a free agent.
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2010
  21. vyrago

    vyrago Rookie

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    Old school? I wish I had gone to that old school. This is, my tool is bigger than your tool school.
  22. Gwedd

    Gwedd PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    And you know this how? The Patriots, according to published news sources, offered Mankins a top-3 contract. If by "leaked it early to the media" you mean talking $@*^'s like Felger and that crew, then I wouldn't trust a word from their lips. Perhaps you meant Florio? He hasn't met a rumour yet that he wasn't willing to pimp out as being told to him by the Gods of Football themselves.

    The Patriots have been more than fair and reasonable with their offers. It's more likely that Mankins hasn't been told the full story by his agent.

    Regardless, painting the Patriots as "cheap" is a constant meme by those with an axe to grind. They've never been cheap, and their record shows that plainly to anyone willing to actually, you know, examine the facts.
  23. IllegalContact

    IllegalContact Rookie

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    how do you know that's actually what he was offered? what about the guaranteed portion?

    are you sure its AFTER the uncapped year? why would anyone say I will take care of you during a lockout? sounds pretty silly

    well......file it next to your 1st 2 unless you have actual proof that they happened, otherwise, you sound biased

    I don't think he gives a crap about your respect. And why are the pats automatically absolved from stating their case? on one hand you have a player who has never known to be dishonest. on the other you have an organization who has been questioned in terms of honesty. I ain't judging, but the pats are not above it all
  24. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Banned

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    Yes, that's what Mankins said and yes he did sound silly. It may have been just a slip of the tongue, but IMHO it showed Mankins doesn't really understand what is going on here and he is just following his agent's marching orders.
    Yeah. Right. Sure. Players (and their agents) are just the absolute models of honesty and integrity when it comes to contract negotiations. :rolleyes:
  25. DW Toys

    DW Toys Rookie

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    Cousins,
    Here is the way I see it. Mankins got what he was worth on the table. His (his agent gets about 3%) agent will get about a quarter million dollars of this new payday if he can get $8m. It is about money with the agent. They are unscrupulous anyway so the difference between $6.5m and $8m is about $50,000 to Mr. Bauer. The Pats should pay him an "honorarium" of that $50k as good will and get this deal done. You think he would ever tell LM?

    Seriously, I would trade him. By accident I came upon the 49ers site and it has suggested Manny Lawson and a third rounder for Mankins. I might do that. Lawson is in a squabble there but might be closer to sign.

    "Lawson started all 16 games last year for the first time in his career, leading the 49ers with a career-high 6.5 sacks. Since then, San Francisco has extended the contracts of other young players the team feels are key to its future.

    Lawson is in the final season of the five-year, $7.5 million deal he signed as the second of San Francisco's two first-round draft picks in 2006. His base salary of $630,000 pays him less than two of the team's other outside linebackers"


    He is a more urgent need for the Pats than an OG who thinks he is the best in the game but really had only a fair 2009 the way I saw it. Lawson has been said to be superb in coverage and at 6.5 sacks, he is more the BB type OLB at 6' 5". Seems like a OLB who is just starting to get it. We are still struggling to fill that void....Murrell? Burgess? an injured Cunningham?

    But at the end of the day the old issue of the Pats being cheap shows it's ugly head. Signing Mankins might be the best for the Team as a whole in future negotiations with top FAs.

    Perhaps trade Mankins and sign Lawson long term might work to still resolve that and we still have a third rounder "to have and to hold"! And Mankins can go back to the fruits and the nuts of good old California and Nancy P.
    DW Toys
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2010
  26. DropKickFlutie

    DropKickFlutie Rookie

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    HOW do you know Mankins was offered a top 3 contract besides the fact that Pats camp keeps repeating it over and over????

    Published reports are 35M over 5 years to start after the RFA year at 3M, which makes it a tad over 6M per year for 6 years, which isn't even top 10 guard money, especially 2 years from now.
  27. IllegalContact

    IllegalContact Rookie

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    just like the owners, right? please, have a reasonable perspective
  28. IllegalContact

    IllegalContact Rookie

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    their logic is that if that's what thepats offered, then that's what he must be worth.

    a little simplistic, but I guess it works for some people
  29. IllegalContact

    IllegalContact Rookie

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    that's nice, but under the current situation, mankins is not under contract, therefor he cannot be traded
  30. Clonamery

    Clonamery PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    WHO is the Pats camp? Show me links to these reports that is not some specultaive turd mediot. Otherwise all this is a wasted crapfest.
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