The Linebacker position in the patriots scheme

[Joker]

I wouldn't have complained if we took Shawn Merriman in the draft.

 

[DB15]

No matter how it may appear, I don't think there is an actual strategy of getting by without spending high draft picks at LB, that's just the way it's worked out. BB/Pioli have simply found better value at other positions where we've been picking in the draft. And, until the brief Beisel-Brown era last year, LB has always been one of the strongest groups on the team.

Perhaps next year is the year we spend a first or second on LB. And when we do, you can bet that the pick will be a friggin stud, like all our other 1st rounders. Imagine being a LB and getting drafted to play for Bill Belichick.... it ain't gonna be just anyone. Free agents are less of a risk and I have to think thats what brought some of the JAGs in to play the position.

great post dude


looking back im pretty sure signing vrable is possibly our single biggest and best signing in the past 10 years.. think about that statement before you respond.

 

[DB15]

I wouldn't have complained if we took Shawn Merriman in the draft.

haha I dont think anyone would have. Its always fun to think what the pats would do if any of the latest (past three years) big name lb prospects were still on the board come the pats first round pick

 

[flutie2phelan]

Actually wouldn't be surpised to see them go early for a real Mcginest replacement at olb/de.

Didn't Urban Meyer say that BB
took Mincey to groom into Willie's replacement?

 

[DB15]

Didn't Urban Meyer say that BB
took Mincey to groom into Willie's replacement?

big shoes to fill..

 

[RayClay]

Didn't Urban Meyer say that BB
took Mincey to groom into Willie's replacement?

The key here is a "real" McGinest replacement.

Mincey or TBC or Vrabel/Colvin will play the position, but they spent the 4th overall in the draft for Willie.

Draft position doesn't mean everything, but it means physical ability that doesn't last until the 6th round.

Much like BB's penchant for 1st round Defensive linemen, Willie's combination of speed strength agility etc. is rare, hence the high pick.

 

[D-cleater]

great post dude


looking back im pretty sure signing vrable is possibly our single biggest and best signing in the past 10 years.. think about that statement before you respond.

Interesting. I might just agree with you on this one. We can easily narrow it down to the past 7 years that BB has been here. So who else would be considered a more impactful FA signing? You could make a case for Cory, but I think 6+ years of solid, often excellent contribution (think of all the SB's !)outweighs one 1600 yd season. You could make a strong case for Rodney, and as much as I love him, he's still going into his 4th season whereas Vrabel is going in to his 6th. Ted Washington.... one season. Phifer and Hamilton were big signings, but they are gone. Vrabel it is...

 

[jimmyjames]

haha I dont think anyone would have. Its always fun to think what the pats would do if any of the latest (past three years) big name lb prospects were still on the board come the pats first round pick

Can one of our resident draft experts tell us who the Pats have passed on at LB in order to take Seymour, Graham, Warren, Wilfork, Watson and Mankins?

What about other day 1 picks at LB we could have had? Is there someone playing LB on another team right now that we could have had?

 

[arrellbee]

Goodness gracious. After all of the heated predictions over the past couple drafts that the Pats would (just HAD to) draft a LB high, it starts AGAIN ?? Jeeeesh. Why don't we just get this season out of the way first. Then we can make WAGs about what the Pats HAVE to do and what BB/SP WILL do.

 

[jimmyjames]

Goodness gracious. After all of the heated predictions over the past couple drafts that the Pats would (just HAD to) draft a LB high, it starts AGAIN ?? Jeeeesh. Why don't we just get this season out of the way first. Then we can make WAGs about what the Pats HAVE to do and what BB/SP WILL do.

I don't think we were looking at it that way. Seems to me that everyone was in agreement that Pats have done a great job on the draft and the right LB has not come along yet. Then I was just wondering if anyone could point at who they may have passed on in order to take the highly impatful payers they did.

 

[DB15]

Interesting. I might just agree with you on this one. We can easily narrow it down to the past 7 years that BB has been here. So who else would be considered a more impactful FA signing? You could make a case for Cory, but I think 6+ years of solid, often excellent contribution (think of all the SB's !)outweighs one 1600 yd season. You could make a strong case for Rodney, and as much as I love him, he's still going into his 4th season whereas Vrabel is going in to his 6th. Ted Washington.... one season. Phifer and Hamilton were big signings, but they are gone. Vrabel it is...

great post, im glad you agree, he really is one of the most underrated signing's

 

[captain stone]

Can one of our resident draft experts tell us who the Pats have passed on at LB in order to take Seymour, Graham, Warren, Wilfork, Watson and Mankins?

What about other day 1 picks at LB we could have had? Is there someone playing LB on another team right now that we could have had?

BB/SP could have had:

In 2000, OLB Adalius Thomas, in 5th round.
Taken: TE Dave Stachelski and DL Jeff Marriot.

In 2001, ILB Edgerton Hartwell, in 4th round.
Taken: OL Kenyatta Jones and TE Jabari Holloway. And in the 3rd round, CB Brock Williams - maybe the worst draft pick (ahead of Dexter Reid) of the current regime.

In 2002, ILB Trev (cousin of Kevin) Faulk, in 7th round.
Taken: HB Antowine Womack.

In 2003, Dan Klecko should have been developed as an ILB from Day 1.
With this defense, he is a square peg in a round hole.

In 2004, ILB/OLB Karlos Dansby, end of 1st round.
Taken: TE Ben Watson, who could have possibly been obtained as Chad Jackson was this year: for a 2nd and 3rd round pick.

In 2005, ILB Liam Ezekial, in 7th round.
Taken: Mr. Irrelevant, TE Andy Stokes.

In 2006, OLB Mark Anderson, in 4th round.
Taken: K Stephen Gostkowski, who more than likely would have been available in the 6th round.

These examples were chosen because, at that point of the draft, those players would have represented value from the LB position and, except for Watson and Gostkowski, no current players would have been bypassed. Are there any HOFers in this bunch? Probably not, but they certainly represent an upgrade over the current pile of backup candidates.

 

[PonyExpress]

Drafting ILBs is a waste. When you have a probowl nose tackle (Wilfork), and two pro bowl caliber DEs (Seymour and Warren), my grandma could effectively play ILB. OLB is another story, and requires first day talent. For example, even Banta Cain was considered 2nd rd talent leading into the draft before injury concerns dropped him to the 7th round.

 

[D-cleater]

I think we passed up on Lofa Tatupu also last year, who looks to be pretty good.

Arrelbee, you seem to like a good LB discussion once in a while , are you saying you would prefer to talk more about Branch?

 

[Ichiro]

I think we passed up on Lofa Tatupu also last year, who looks to be pretty good.

Arrelbee, you seem to like a good LB discussion once in a while , are you saying you would prefer to talk more about Branch?

Tatupu porbably would be too small to play in our traditional 3-4 scheme, but if you read Patriots Reign they seemed to have Vilma rated high in the 2004 draft, who is a similar player to Tatupu (especially in size).

My biggest concern is that college LB's these days all seem to be too small to fit the big ILB's that coaches like Parcells and Belichick like. I think that ILB have a different skill set than OLB/DE. Playing over the TE or tackle is completely different from playing over the guard, where trap blocks can come from anywhere. Although some can translate (all of our ILBs Seau, Bruschi, Vrabel), its often a difficult transition as we can see with Monty Beisel. I mean how many teams in college run a 3-4? I can only think of one, Virginia (I'm not sure that LSU does now, but they did under Saban).

 

[arrellbee]

Originally Posted by arrellbee
Goodness gracious. After all of the heated predictions over the past couple drafts that the Pats would (just HAD to) draft a LB high, it starts AGAIN ?? Jeeeesh. Why don't we just get this season out of the way first. Then we can make WAGs about what the Pats HAVE to do and what BB/SP WILL do.

I don't think we were looking at it that way. Seems to me that everyone was in agreement that Pats have done a great job on the draft and the right LB has not come along yet. Then I was just wondering if anyone could point at who they may have passed on in order to take the highly impatful payers they did.

Yes. I was reacting to something that was NOT really the theme of almost all of the posts - which you point out. I retract the post as not being a very pertinent or applicable comment.

cheers

 

[PonyExpress]

Tatupu porbably would be too small to play in our traditional 3-4 scheme, but if you read Patriots Reign they seemed to have Vilma rated high in the 2004 draft, who is a similar player to Tatupu (especially in size).

My biggest concern is that college LB's these days all seem to be too small to fit the big ILB's that coaches like Parcells and Belichick like. I think that ILB have a different skill set than OLB/DE. Playing over the TE or tackle is completely different from playing over the guard, where trap blocks can come from anywhere. Although some can translate (all of our ILBs Seau, Bruschi, Vrabel), its often a difficult transition as we can see with Monty Beisel. I mean how many teams in college run a 3-4? I can only think of one, Virginia (I'm not sure that LSU does now, but they did under Saban).

Is it possible that at the time in the draft process in '02-'03 that the Patriots were considering Vilma, they hadn't yet decided to go with the 3-4? After all, in '01 and '02 they played the 4-3. I think maybe they initially were intrigued by Vilma, and then when BB settled on his defensive philosophy going forward they discarded the notion and decided to pursue a 3-4 DE in rd 1. Otherwise, the Vilma attraction makes little sense. Another possibility is that Holly might have got something wrong or confused. I never would have suspected it at first, but listening to him blabber on the radio I find his credibility as a real insider dropping by the day. He seems to know about as much about the Pats' roster as a casual fan. He said the other day the Pats D-line is nowhere near the best in the league, as though the subject wasn't worth discussing.

 

[Ichiro]

Is it possible that at the time in the draft process in '02-'03 that the Patriots were considering Vilma, they hadn't yet decided to go with the 3-4? After all, in '01 and '02 they played the 4-3. I think maybe they initially were intrigued by Vilma, and then when BB settled on his defensive philosophy going forward they discarded the notion and decided to pursue a 3-4 DE in rd 1. Otherwise, the Vilma attraction makes little sense. Another possibility is that Holly might have got something wrong or confused. I never would have suspected it at first, but listening to him blabber on the radio I find his credibility as a real insider dropping by the day. He seems to know about as much about the Pats' roster as a casual fan. He said the other day the Pats D-line is nowhere near the best in the league, as though the subject wasn't worth discussing.

IIRC, the Pats were a 4-3 team in 01 and 02, but switched in 03 after all the problems stopping the run the year before. Vilma was drafted in 04, the April after the 3-4 scheme led us to Super Bowl 38. I think after this, BB was staying 3-4 no matter what. Vilma's flashed some potential with the Jets, however, I've seen him get run over quite a few times (remember the Jets first game against the Chiefs last year).
I also agree about Holley. I was so excited when he joined the lineup at EEI. His book was hot, and I thought he would add a lot to the boring lineup at the radio station. But some time later, I got to say I'm not impressed. Having Dale Arnold as his co-host doesn't help, though.

 

[patsfan55]

Oh. I believe Neal was undrafted.
And Bethel is not a success.

ya i shouldnt have included the likes of givens and neal etc
but bethel i still include
and i shouldve included rohan davey (fourth rder), jr redmond (2nd rder)

because these are investments
high round investments
and weve made these kinds of investments at every single position during this regime except for linebacker
i understand its the hardest to groom, but u gotta do it sooner or later cuz bruschi is gettin old, seau is a stopgap, and vrabel and colvin will soon be lookin for extensions/get older
so, we neeeeeed to infuse some great youth
i love tbc, i love woods, but these guys dont have the ability that a lofa tatupu, bobby carpenter, odell thurman etc have

 

[patsfan55]

Drafting ILBs is a waste. When you have a probowl nose tackle (Wilfork), and two pro bowl caliber DEs (Seymour and Warren), my grandma could effectively play ILB. OLB is another story, and requires first day talent. For example, even Banta Cain was considered 2nd rd talent leading into the draft before injury concerns dropped him to the 7th round.

so how did our defense look with chad brown and monty beisel at ilb last year

seriously were you under a rock at the time