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"The Job Creators"

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by PatsFanInVa, Aug 19, 2012.

  1. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I'd like to get clear on something: Our most recent Luntz-phrase for "business owners" is "the job creators."

    There are great business owners out there. There are good business owners out there. There are just plain folks trying to make a go of it out there. There are also those cutting corners, tax chiseling, etc. ::shrug::

    This guy is a job creator:

    [​IMG]

    Well, he's a costume meant to represent a job creator, obviously.

    The theory goes like this:

    - He finds work for people who want jobs. In this case, the definition applies to both the demand and the supply side, if we allow a bit of slang.

    - He takes on the risk of the business. In this case, market risk is lower, and regulatory risk is higher... sort of like working in a more heavily regulated version of the oil industry, I suppose, where demand is all but inelastic, and where all business owners are defined as criminal if you can prove their participation.

    - He makes a great deal of money from his business endeavor, and his employees also make some amount of money from their participation.

    - Even if he himself is actually "overhead," a parasitic growth on the business transaction... it cannot be denied that some workers would never have become workers without his influence and facilitation.

    - Sometimes he has to play hardball with the employees and not every employee demand is met as regards working conditions or compensation.

    With regulation of his industry so extreme, naturally, he becomes hostile to the state and its apparatus. Because the government is so immoral and bad, he has no choice but to evade its reach to the extent possible.

    For our righties, I'll certainly also admit that while he made his business, he didn't make the streets -- somebody else built that. And I've never heard of a fieldwalker.

    This little exercise is not to excoriate business owners. It is to point out that every "sin" great and little is not excused by the fact that one's activity, in a microcosm, can be phrased as "creating jobs."

    The rightist meme is meant to be juxtaposed against government, not against a world of individual self-employed people.

    In case of an employer and an employee, a business owner is every bit as much "overhead" as is the government. A corporatist world and a socialist world are little different in principle from the point of view of the actual worker.

    Socialists and libertarians alike accept this premise. However, Libertarians also maintain that "taking risk" is also a job, as in the case of Huggy Bear here.

    Huggy Bear is not, however, inherently good, right, moral, and without involvement in a number of social ills. He is only the person who's enabled to fill a given niche by the rules of the game as they've evolved at a given moment in time.

    PFnV
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2012
  2. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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  3. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Rookie

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    It's "Job-creators"! :D
  4. The Brandon Five

    The Brandon Five Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    Libertarians believe in the rule of law, so I think you are engaging in a little bit of straw-manning here.

    Where in your estimation does wealth come from? What creates capital or value?
  5. Titus Pullo

    Titus Pullo Banned

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    Cept for 2000-2008 when Wall St. fraud and tWoT fraud was the norm, not the exception... then it was entirely negotiable.
  6. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    I didn't know libertarians were in power then.
  7. Drewski

    Drewski Rookie

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    No Jersey Selected

    I was wondering about that too.

    Unless...Titus - were you speaking to Libertarians not coming out and condoning the actions of Wall St/ War on terror when Dubya was POTUS?

    Thatis the only way that statement makes any sense at all.
  8. Titus Pullo

    Titus Pullo Banned

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    It has nothing to do with who was in power. I'm asking where was the outrage from this camp when the "letter of the law" was being abused on a daily basis? Oh, that's right. Dead silent.

    Really gets to my point that this modern incarnation of "libertarianism" is really just anti-left blather that maintains a situational ethics platform on everything from illegal war to outsourcing to estate tax. They're no pillars of justice in any way , shape or form.
  9. Titus Pullo

    Titus Pullo Banned

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    btw...

    abundant, affordable natural resources.
  10. The Brandon Five

    The Brandon Five Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    I always know when it is harvest time. Thanks for all the straw!
  11. The Brandon Five

    The Brandon Five Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    The cool kids put an end to all that right? Oh, wait.

    Dronez r kool.

    Justice being whatever you say it is, right?
  12. The Brandon Five

    The Brandon Five Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    So why wasn't there more wealth before all the resources were depleted?
  13. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Rookie

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    Titus, you're intelligent and have a lot of life experience. So you should understand that as long as our economy is good, no one complains.

    So you should even be asking why group "X" never complained from 2000-2007! You KNOW why!

    Public sector workers have had many benefits they didn't deserve for a LONG time, yet few complained while "things were good". Why is/was that? For one, the media never wrote stories about public sector workers getting $150k pension after just 20 years on the job.

    But now that we're getting a clear picture of the mess we're in, we want to know more and more where and how our tax dollars are being spent. And golly-gee...we're concerned about our financial condition too.

    And for those of us still working, we'd like to believe we too can retire and still have a few more decent years left to have some fun. And no, we don't want to have to wait longer and pay more taxes just to support the 50% of Americans who are on gov't assistance.

    You should understand that no one feels it is our duty to work harder and longer to support any more than our immediate families while others use their EBT cards to buy things like beer and scratch tickets.

    Call us the Grinch if you like, but I don't believe we're asking too much.
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2012
  14. Titus Pullo

    Titus Pullo Banned

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    LOL... in real terms? wages to GDP? There was. Far more wealth. In fact, and you may have heard of this, but most families actually only needed one income to survive and prosper just fine.

    We peaked and entered decline in 1971... Further supporting my point.
  15. Titus Pullo

    Titus Pullo Banned

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    Did I say that? Could you miss the point more laughably?


    You mean like putting more convicted banking CEOs in jail for life? Holding executive branch foreign policy fraud accountable? yes... Probably a lot more than you, being the proponent of "market forces" and deregulation that you undoubtedly you are.
  16. The Brandon Five

    The Brandon Five Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    If abundant resources are wealth, wouldn't the wealthiest period have been before they were used? Say, 1871?

    Who is "we"?

    You support your point with more, umm, points? Convincing.
  17. Titus Pullo

    Titus Pullo Banned

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    So you have to go back to the pre-industrial period in order to show a deviation from the model as you see it? LOL.

    Ummm, the United States? You're a member, right?

    Correct. RW asked what creates wealth. I answered abundant natural resources. I'd say that point is fairly unassailable. It's energy that does the actual work, not paper currency. Not "rich people." (One could argue slave labor is a form of energy with minimal cost input, but I digress)

    Or look at it another way, denialist: Those hundreds of trillions in derivatives trading and fiat capital? Guess what? They're all ultimately based on the tacit assumption of ever-more energy being produced. What do you think happens when that assumption no longer holds any real weight? Economic contraction and a radical correction of market value.

    Now, I know our dynamic - you and I - is for you to learn as you go along while maintaining an obtuse "prove it more" outer shell, but at some point you might actually give me an ounce of credit ... or at least admit rich people dont ultimately "create wealth" for us all as a society.

    Oh, and as for 1871, MONEY didn't save depleting buffalo, either. There's a limit to everything we gluttonously use. Something you cons just don't seem to understand.

    "Trickle Down" only "works" when you're producing more, more and more.
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2012
  18. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Apparently you missed the 80's, perhaps too young? Or non existent at that point?


    I remember the peak oil prouncements in the 70's...:D
  19. Titus Pullo

    Titus Pullo Banned

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    Help me understand the point you're trying to make in regards to my post. What about the 80s?

    Are you trying to say U.S. production did not peak in 1971? Please say you are.
  20. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Banned

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    The fact that you have to come up with this idiotic example does nothing but demonstrate the intellectual bankrupcy of the point you are feebly trying to make.

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