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The Jewish and Athiest/Agnostic Support Obama The Most.

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by IcyPatriot, Oct 2, 2009.

  1. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey

    I'm always a bit perplexed on this religious polls. We're supposed to be a country of seperation of church and state and yet religious support or lack of support is still way huge. So for what it's worth here it is ...

    [​IMG]

    So I have a few questions for the membership at large:

    ~ Is Romney wasting his time?

    ~ Does this mean an Athiest/Agnostic Could emerge in the future?

    ~ Would we be better off with an Athiest/Agnostic in the Oval Office?

    ` Would the Christian right leave the country if the above happened?
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2009
  2. DarrylS

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    This came up in another thread earlier in the day, and most of the founding fathers were deists.. a religious and philosophical belief that a supreme being created the universe, and that this (and religious truth in general) can be determined using reason and observation of the natural world alone, without a need for either faith or organized religion.

    This group include Jefferson, Franklin, Adams, Paine, Washington... so a lot of what we were taught is a myth.. they believed in god, but did not have a formal religion.

    My fave quote about the church/state.. by Diderot.

  3. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey


    Good stuff there ... somewhere along the way we got lossed.
    I grew up Catholic - prefer to call my self Christian and I hate the mixing of politics and religion.
  4. KontradictioN

    KontradictioN Do you even lift? PatsFans.com Supporter

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    No Jersey Selected

    Not quite sure why Jewish support for Obama is so high. The guy is trying to appease Muslim countries that flat out hate and, in some cases want to see Israel leveled and destroyed (according to their leaders anyway). Maybe it's because of Rahm? :confused:
  5. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Rookie

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    These are secular Jews, "cultural" Jews, like Bill Maher, Jon Stewart, Barbra Streisand, Madelyn Murray O'Hare, etc. A high percentage of such folks are atheist/agnostic. They're pissed at God and Christians for the Holocaust. Therefore they hate God and Christian ideas in the schools and public places. They must like Obama's "preacher", Rev Wright, for his incendiary rants against America, and Obama's tutors, like Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn.


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  6. PatsFanInEaglesLand

    PatsFanInEaglesLand Rookie

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    #37 Jersey

    Your first part is probably true, but than you go so far out there with the next point, that I even find it offensive.
  7. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    As did I, did not have a choice after a divorce.. they do not want me.. I too am probably more of a christian, than anything else...
  8. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Rookie

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    What are the first and second parts?? Sorry, don't follow what you're saying. How else can you explain the fact that the ACLU and their allies have just about ethnically cleansed all faith from the public square all throughout America?


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  9. DarrylS

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    Another f.. ing hijack, every day on every thread..
  10. PatsFanInVa

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    To translate to the American football-watching idiom,

    "Man will never be free until Peter King is strangled with the guts of Priest Holmes."
  11. PatsFanInVa

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    Do you even understand the parts of speech? How can you "ethnically cleanse" all faith?

    EVEN if you think that ALL faiths are ethnic groups, based on the fact that SOME faiths are by accident of history also ethnic groups, you cannot "ETHNICALLY cleanse" "all faith."

    Ethnic cleansing is the act of setting up ethnically pure regions, coined for the actions of the Serbs in the 1990s.

    You can't "ethnically cleanse" an area of Baptists, for example, except -- arguably -- if by long tradition Baptists are all of one distinct ethnic group (I know of nowhere in the world where this is the case, but such a situation it is not unimaginable). There can be a religious persecution, but it's not an ethnic cleansing.

    You can much less make the argument that one can "ethnically cleanse" SYMBOLS -- words and icons representing religious IDEAS -- from the public square or anywhere else.

    What ethnicity is a cross from, or a stone tablet? Can you tell them by the texture of their hair or skin color? Perhaps the length and thickness of their fingers, as in the case of Tutsis and Hutus? Are there plastic nativity scene figures living in the forest now, since they are "ethnically cleansed" from the public square, scratching out a meager survival, giving birth to wandering tribes of displaced nativity figures, teaching them the ways of the nativity figure people?

    Words mean something. Learn some.

    PFnV
  12. PatsFanInVa

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    Well, if the bar charts represented prevalence of each group in the population, then an atheist/agnostic or Jew would be the best choice for a party's candidate. But that's not what they represent.

    They represent the proportion within each group that supports Obama.

    Is Romney wasting his time? I think if he got the nod, he might lose the election but he would succeed in forcing most wackjob theocratic right-wingers to declare Mormons at least "sort of" Christian. It would be interesting to watch the civil war on that one. I do not know whether he could get elected, but his fate would be tied to that of the GOP, so in that sense, I don't think the GOP is in good shape to win in '12.

    Atheists/Agnostics are growing as a portion of the population, so that answer may one day be yes. One day. Not now.

    Would we be better off with an Atheist/Agnostic?

    My personal point of view is it is unlikely there will be a Jew as president anytime soon; nor is that necessarily who I'd vote for just on the strength of identity politics. But failing that, it makes no difference to me if a candidate is a Muslim, a Christian, an atheist, a moonie, whatever, so long as his or her policies and viewpoints are sound, and so long as he or she is fairly qualified (I'd vote for a Senator from a large state, for example, but not for a plumber or a 1/2 term governor of a small state. That's just me.)

    I've never had the chance to vote along religious lines, whereas Christians in America do so routinely. I don't think I'd do it, but watch all the people who cry and complain that others practice "identity politics" if and when a non-Christian is nominated.

    Will the Christian right leave the country? You, sir, are an optimist. They'd probably start a War for Peace or something equally logical, storm the white house and the Capitol, and replace the Lincoln Memorial with the Jesus Seat.

    PFnV
  13. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey

    While Obama has faults - not unlike any other politicians I find him rather good on the religious scale. He seems to have used religion in past political relationships more than he does now. He seems to be making or rather taking extra steps to keep religion out of his policies which is no easy task in this day and age.

    Bush wasn't bad overtly but he did use the Christian right to gain office and he did pander to them whenever possible. I don't see where Obama is pandering to any religion which is how it should be for our President.

    I think a President who can worship as he/she chooses and otherwise use the "no comment" clause regarding religion would be at the top of my list in that category. I think an athiest for does not wear that title on their sleeve could win a future election ... I don't see why not. He/she would have to be single as i think a married athiest would draw scorn from the electorate. It would not matter to me but the press would be all over a person who chooses to raise their kids as athiests. IMO.
  14. PatsFanInVa

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    Pretty much agree there. In some ways this country has been bible-belted into the stone age.
  15. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Rookie

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    You have a problem with metaphor, don't you.

    Try harder; this ain't gubmint work, you know.


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  16. weswelker#83

    weswelker#83 Rookie

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    You need to do more homework , i wish you Good Luck.
    Should i explain you how positive effect was the Obama election on the WHOLE Middle East area or not ?
    The good versus the evil , peace versus war ;)

    You have a lot of catch up to do ,i will give you a hint:
    start reading how Obama election made the mollahs of Iran look stupid because they don't have no more boggyman to make their own people rally behind them .
    We didn't use a single bullet ....:D
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2009
  17. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Rookie

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    Hope you're right. Let's pray.


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  18. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #12 Jersey

    Sometimes, Foggy, when the battle's lost and there's no hope of victory it's far far better to shut the hell up and let people wonder if you're really that big of a fool than it is to continue opening your mouth until you've dispelled all doubt.

    "Ethnic cleansing" is no more a metaphor for the act of removing religious icons from public places than flying to Chicago is a metaphor for a Tampa Bay/Patriots football game or Catholic Charities is a metaphor for Indonesian barbeque parties.

    A metaphor is a symbol - and as such it needs to be presented and carried out in a way which continues the symbolism. As MrPFnV pointed out, and pointed out quite clearly and precisely, a ethnicity is not and cannot be a symbol for a religion.
  19. PatsFanInVa

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    In his predictably anti-semitic rant above, foggy "explains" by insisting that Obama's support is not among Jews he believes you and he imagine, but among the "fake" Jews who are actually the majority, i.e., reform, reconstructionist, any tradition other than the imagined tradition fog wants Jews to be.

    However, the Orthodox Jews in my family are quite politically liberal. And while political liberalism would probably be more characteristic of reform Jews than orthodox, my bet is that orthodox Jews are more politically liberal than their evangelical counterparts.

    In addition, Jews practice inclusivity. The orthodox might think reform Jews (or any other branch) might not be getting it right, but the talmudic doctrine is "once a Jew always a Jew." Even Protestants, before the schism, had over a thousand years of papal authority in their background; their new churches for the most part adopted the hierarchic structure of the Catholics. So there is a great deal more leeway in saying of another Christian (whether Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, or smaller sect,) "You're not REALLY a Christian!"

    Jews can say that if they want, but it carries no theological weight. This makes it much more difficult to apply a litmus test and be taken seriously. Even a politically conservative orthodox Jew is hard-pressed to come up with an argument that I (for example) am not a Jew, because of my politics.

    All that to say, the theological blackmail gig is significantly weaker among Jews.

    Example: abortion, one signature issue of the culture wars, has different standing in Judaism (even orthodox Judaism,) than among Christians. Even orthodox Judaism maintains that it is not only your right but your obligation to end a pregnancy when the mother's life is in danger.

    So while culture warriors may be able to drag along a few orthodox Jews with them, the preconceived (heh, pun intended) notion that a fetus is a person does not pertain in Judaism, undercutting one of the great guilt truncheons of the religious right, which typically works very well against their "flocks."

    A final thought: Jews are a minority. Christians are a majority. Jews have faced real persecution over the ages, and continue to. Christians have not seen true persecution in America or in the modern age, despite their cries that when their agenda is not the national agenda, that defines discrimination.

    Left-of-center politics focuses on the well-being of all, young, old, rich, poor, black, white, and enlisting the help of the state in persuing said goal.

    Right-of-center politics vilifies the poor and minority groups, a fact known by all but the few who still adhere to right-of-center politics. The explanation they prefer is that the status quo is always not just fair ENOUGH, it is TOO fair, giving alllllll our precious resources to women, minorities, immigrants, blah blah blah. Whether you think this premise is true or not, minorities know hateful bigotry when they see it, particularly if they've seen it recently. Jews know that the Rabid right will turn on them in a heartbeat, as the rightist fringe has always done.

    When I point out these differences it is not to say that each attitude is held by each Jew or each Christian. It is to say the two groups have different histories and different concerns, not to mention differences in the doctrines that to an extent unite each group. There are liberal churches which accept abortion, and there are probably orthodox Jews who think it should not be practiced. But by and large, the characteristics that would distinguish the two groups are represented in greater proportion for the tendencies I have ascribed as "predominant" Jewish tendencies, among Jews (and likewise for "Christian" tendencies among Christians.)

    PFnV
  20. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    Perhaps Jews who care about Israel prefer the forward thinking, reality-based leadership of Shimon Peres and the late Yitzhak Rabin to the bumbling, Bush-like, loud dark ages approach of Netanyahu, Sharon and Shamir.

    Obama doesn't dislike Israel. He dislikes the blind,chest beating, backwards oriented leadership of Benyamin Netanyahu. I'm an ardently pro-Israel Jew, yet that doesn't make me automatically support the illegal building of Jewish settlements in the West Bank.

    Netanyahu is merely appeasing the second fastest growing population in the Israeli electorate; the ultra religious Charedim, who, by the way, do not pay taxes and do not serve in the armed forces - - yet dictate much of the Government policy.

    So, yes, I FULLY support Barack Obama's hard line against Netanyahu as being a pro-Israeli policy - - much as I fully supported the American people turning its back on George W. Bush as an action to finally SAVE our nation from further catastrophe.

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