The Invisible Man...kins

[Patjew]

LOL Thanks PJ. It just struck me as I read the LaCanfora piece that it's as if Mankins doesn't exist...

As for your somewhat alternate option of paying him for a year, that was never gonna fly with this guy. He wants his long term deal on his terms or nothing by all indications.

OK, then let's sign him long term. Mankins seems to be a proud man, but I think he can be reasoned with. I hope so, for the Patriots' sake more than his.

 

[Patjew]

It's not like the Pats to pay a player who doesn't put the team first. I put trade him just like they did with Branch

Everyone wants to get paid. The man his been on his rookie contract for like 14 years now.

 

[RayClay]

Ah, you have jumped to step 2 of my diabolical plan.

Seriously, this crap happens all of the time in business (and sports, I guess). Someone plays hardball, some BS concessions are made, and then the two sides come together. A week later it's all forgotten.

To those suggesting the Pats play hardball, who exactly does that benefit? Why should the Pats punish themselves by fielding an inferior O-line and risk their franchise player if they can get this thing done and bring in their stud guard with a couple minor concessions?

Get that hick in F-boro now!

I'm a pragmatist myself. I wouldn't pay 7 million for a guard, I don't think he makes 7 million dollars worth of difference.

However, it's not my money. If they think so, why isn't Mankins waking up? Is he going to sit out the year?

I think they just wait for more cuts, there have hardly been any and they already found two experienced guards. If they get lucky and find a good vet, and i think that's quite possible, they've saved a huge on a term contract and maybe they can spend that on a thin position like pass rusher, instead of one where the have 5 or 6 guys backed up and can pick up an experienced vet for nothing every week as cuts are made.

The only reason to pay a guard exorbitant money is he makes any running back into Jim Brown, like Hannah did. Have we had an awesome running game I'm not aware of?

For all these posters about Brady on his ass, guards aren't primary pass protectors, tackles are. Mankins is being over hyped and an above average vet is not worth 7 million dollars less, sorry.

Why didn't Brady die with Compton, Andruzzi and Hochstein in front of him? Fact is, guys of that caliber or better will be available for zero in the next two weeks. If I were Mankins agent, I'd hustle his ass into camp before the next round of cuts, and an apology yo Mr. Kraft would be a nice gesture. I'm sure BB doesn't give a flying fart.

 

[Patjew]

You guys can probably tell that I tend to business in a somewhat emotional way. I find that when I approach people emotionally, they react in kind and we can get things done.

I'm not a capologist. I just know that the Pats are better with Mankins than without and it's not my money, so I hope to get him in camp. Just like I hoped to get Branch in camp and get Asante re-signed. Not saying that's right, per se.

 

[RayClay]

You guys can probably tell that I tend to business in a somewhat emotional way. I find that when I approach people emotionally, they react in kind and we can get things done.

I'm not a capologist. I just know that the Pats are better with Mankins than without and it's not my money, so I hope to get him in camp. Just like I hoped to get Branch in camp and get Asante re-signed. Not saying that's right, per se.

I was in favor of going to great lengths to sign Seymour a few years ago. They probably swallowed their pride on that one, but he was a top two or three in importance. Hated to let him go this time, but age, injuries and Oakland's draft position said do it.

Branch was a traitor and pretty much held the team hostage. Screw him. It hurt us for a year, but that was all on him, he was under contract. I was all for the draft pick. Had we bowed to his ploy, we would have been one of those joke reams like the Lions, every player knowing they could hold out two weeks before the season and tear up their contract. Plus, what would we have gotten for our long term contract?

Mankins got screwed by the league, not us. We made a very lucrative offer and he told the owner to get screwed. I hope they pick up a vet and keep 6 guards on the practice squad. I'll take the draft pick, or just let him sit a year or two. It's not even about the money as much as keeping the integrity of your dealings.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

You haven't voted yet, what is your opinion? I say wait it out. He was offered a great deal already and was a fool for turning it down.

That was my position from the get go. I didn't vote initially because I didn't want to skewer the other responses.

I don't know if their first offer was their best offer. Sometimes this team takes that seemingly awkward negotiating approach. If not I wouldn't be adverse to sweetening the pot a little via negotiation, but it takes two to negotiate and to date his side has been unwilling to (they never countered). I wouldn't want them to just give him the Evans deal because while I think he's a top 5 LG he's not the benchmark for LG's and if we're gonna pay anyone at the top of the heap I'd save that honor for the guy who likely won't force them to. It's too bad we couldn't put a highest paid nose tackle kind of spin on this...but I don't think he's the type to buy into that, either...

The premium hereabouts goes to guys who are not just talented but tremendous core leaders. They rolled the dice a little on Seymour because they had questions not about his talent but about his durability and leadership, and that is why they talked him into the compromise incremental extension where they could give him the double digit new money AAV dollar figure he wanted while using the final year of his rookie deal to effectively keep his actual AAV over the term of the extension below that and not be stuck with him into the next decade.

While I think a skill guy like Revis or Jackson or McNeill because he's younger and a LT can hold out indefinitely and come close to if not slightly exceed what they might have settled for, I don't see that in Logan's future. He's not a premier talent so much as a solid one who benefitted from playing on this team with this well established OL fronting this QB under this coaching staff (albeit spanning a time period in which we didn't win a ring - and I won't even get into the part he played in that happening). I don't think FO's will be lining up whenever the next league year starts for the opportunity to pay him $8M+ for another 5, 4 of which will be on the wrong side of 30. But I also don't think that would preclude tagging him for trade because if he wants to see ANY long term money after this season he's going to have to make some compromises of his own, including facilitating a trade if he is still determined not to play here.

 

[Patjew]

Very interesting and pretty reasonable perspectives on this. It's going to be interesting to see how it all plays out.

 

[BlueThunder]

If a trade can be made shortly, do it.... Not sure I'd want him contaminating the locker room when he decides to return.

Pats would likely get more in a trade now than after he sits out a year.

Solid guard, but still only a guard....Like others have said here, BB will probably pick up the starter in the next couple of weeks off some other team's cuts.

 

[Garbanza]

Pay him....have a one year of guaranteed salary/bonus (this one)...top heavy contract. Then trade the a@@hole next season - but not after you ensure that you have an adequate replacement (not named Kaczur).

 

[WhiZa]

Everyone wants to get paid. The man his been on his rookie contract for like 14 years now.

I think we all agree the Pats should pay him and they probably would have if he just came to camp. They did it with Warren a few years ago. Instead he decides not to come and is basically saying I'd rather get paid then play for the Patriots. The Patriots stance is you show you want to play for them and then you will get paid.

 

[Patjew]

I think we all agree the Pats should pay him and they probably would have if he just came to camp. They did it with Warren a few years ago. Instead he decides not to come and is basically saying I'd rather get paid then play for the Patriots. The Patriots stance is you show you want to play for them and then you will get paid.

Yep, two stubborn sides and here we are at Impasse City. Seems to me it's best for both sides if the wrangler suits up.

I'm posting way too much in this thread.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

OK, then let's sign him long term. Mankins seems to be a proud man, but I think he can be reasoned with. I hope so, for the Patriots' sake more than his.

It takes two, PJ, and his side has yet to counter our initial offer. From where I sit his side has been totally unreasonable from the get go. Kraft is a proud man too, although one drawn to the role of conciliator. He's either pretty stung or pretty convinced at this point that there isn't anything to be gained in persuing this jerk. Although I'm sure his door remains open if the jerk decides to climb back in off the ledge he's thrown himself onto. The ball is clearly in his court. In a season where we've seen few players watch the brinks truck back up with more than promissory notes. All reports we've heard are his deal was legit with no funny money. That alone should have garnered some good will.

 

[Patjew]

It takes two, PJ, and his side has yet to counter our initial offer. From where I sit his side has been totally unreasonable from the get go. Kraft is a proud man too, although one drawn to the role of conciliator. He's either pretty stung or pretty convinced at this point that there isn't anything to be gained in persuing this jerk. Although I'm sure his door remains open if the jerk decides to climb back in off the ledge he's thrown himself onto. The ball is clearly in his court. In a season where we've seen few players watch the brinks truck back up with more than promissory notes. All reports we've heard are his deal was legit with no funny money. That alone should have garnered some good will.

Oh yes, for sure Mankins needs to come back to the table. He's being the hard ass now and as you said, the ball is in his court. My hope is that Kraft can be the bigger man, woo logan back to the table and appeal to Mankins emotionally, and get this thing done.

Patjew out.

 

[RayClay]

Say they drop 8 mill long term, big bonus on Mankins.

Say Vollmer goes to left tackle and is outstanding. How much will he cost?

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Say they drop 8 mill long term, big bonus on Mankins.

Say Vollmer goes to left tackle and is outstanding. How much will he cost?

Don't think that isn't part of the equation when Bill does his calculations, either...

They have a unit budget. Maybe if they placate Mankins they don't get to keep Vollmer when he starts chirping in 2012 or they have to let Koppen and Light walk rather than keep them around on fairly resonable terms for another year or so. Maybe if they say screw the unit budget they don't get to keep 2 young TE's down the road and lets not even talk about the young LB's or DB's. And if they see everyone else getting top tier deals, and holdouts getting their way, why would they expect any less.

Like Pioli used to preach, forget market setting deals - you can only have so many top 3 or even top 5 deals on the books before it starts impacting what else you can have. Which again is why Bill always says we can have anything we want...provided we're willing to accept the consequences or tradeoffs. Pioli was also fond of saying we were teambuilding from a small pool based on scheme and system. The system part required guys who cared enough about winning here to be reasonable.

 

[Ring 6]

Though I'm a big fan of this franchise's current management, I am a player's person when it comes down to who I support in negotiations.

If I were Mankins I would be a bit peeved as well. He played out the entirety of his crappy rookie deal, which should get credit given other holdouts like Revis who still has a whopping 3 years left on his deal. The deal offered by the Patriots, publicized everywhere to seem like it was a reasonable offer, was about a fifth lower than the top paid guard in the league.

The Patriots do have a history of being tough negotiators, it's what makes them so great in a salary capped league. They even did it to Brady before, on the radio awhile ago they reported that after the first championship the Patriots wouldn't budge on a $20,000 bonus to get Brady re-signed, and Brady never forgot it, he made them re-include that on their 3rd contract together afterwards.

Why is his rookie deal crappy? It was the market.
I dont think the standard for the first offer should be comparing it to the highest paid G in NFL history.
If the difference is that Mankins thinks he is the best G in the NFL and the Pats disagree, no straetgy is necessary, the guy either plays for his tender or sits out and hopes he is a FA next year.
Personally, I think the only way Mankins gets signed with everything that has happened is if the team waits it out until Mankins starts missing football, and whatever millions he will get. Mankins must soften his stance for a deal to get done. IF the team panders as many suggest, then negotiations start with "here is Evans deal how much more than that are you giving me" and will be fruitless. Just MO but there may be more behin the scenes than we know.

 

[RayClay]

Why is his rookie deal crappy? It was the market.
I dont think the standard for the first offer should be comparing it to the highest paid G in NFL history.
If the difference is that Mankins thinks he is the best G in the NFL and the Pats disagree, no straetgy is necessary, the guy either plays for his tender or sits out and hopes he is a FA next year.
Personally, I think the only way Mankins gets signed with everything that has happened is if the team waits it out until Mankins starts missing football, and whatever millions he will get. Mankins must soften his stance for a deal to get done. IF the team panders as many suggest, then negotiations start with "here is Evans deal how much more than that are you giving me" and will be fruitless. Just MO but there may be more behin the scenes than we know.

Also, let's say Mankins is the best guard in the NFL. Do we need to pay for the best guard in the NFL? Are we primarily a running team? I'd say paying for the best defensive linemen in the NFL is important for our D. Maybe we'll draft a Seymour replacement and have to pony up for that. I'm sure Vollmer's agent is going to want some money if he turns out to be as good as I think.

 

[Ring 6]

Also, let's say Mankins is the best guard in the NFL. Do we need to pay for the best guard in the NFL? Are we primarily a running team? I'd say paying for the best defensive linemen in the NFL is important for our D. Maybe we'll draft a Seymour replacement and have to pony up for that. I'm sure Vollmer's agent is going to want some money if he turns out to be as good as I think.

I think this has been answered by drafting him #1 and by the offer that was made to him. I think the Pats offered a deal consistent with how good they feel he is (or better put the correct FIRST OFFER for that). If they just dont want to pay a G they wouldnt have made the offer they did,

 

[RayClay]

I think this has been answered by drafting him #1 and by the offer that was made to him. I think the Pats offered a deal consistent with how good they feel he is (or better put the correct FIRST OFFER for that). If they just dont want to pay a G they wouldnt have made the offer they did,

Well, I'm of the opinion they offered him too much, but my opinion isn't worth a sack of beans. I'll trust they value his contribution up to what they offered him.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

Isn't this thread a rehash of a similar poll a few weeks ago on what we should do about Mankins?