The Ints to Moss

[Bonzo]

You do realize that after an incomplete on a 3rd down, the next down is 4th, right?

I'm not altogether sure what you're getting at. Are you arguing that Brady had no intention of completing that throw to Moss? If so, we are at an impasse.

 

[Ring 6]

They highlighted this play and Welker's route during the game, Wes made the wrong read and sat in double coverage at which point Brady decided to go to Moss. He wanted Welker, he "settled" for Moss.

Thats what I thought also watching it live, but watching again, I disagree. I think he was looking off the safety. It happened a lot faster than Simms described. Watch where Moss is when Brady throws it, and how unthreatened he is by any rush. He fully expected that Moss had his man beaten. It is certainly possible that Welker was the first read, but when he saw Moss, it wasnt settling, Brady expected a TD and threw it exactly where he wanted to.
There is just no way he expected Cromartie to beat Moss to the 3 yard line.

 

[Ring 6]

Too much analysis on these interceptions. Brady's fault.

Cromartie is the type of player who often bites and makes stupid plays. He's liable to let up huge gains. At the same time, on both of these passes Moss was far from an easy target. When Cromartie actually has position, you don't throw at him. He's 6-2 and as athletic as they come. He's fast and has great jumping ability. Why you challenge him when the receiver is not clearly open is the million dollar question. There's a reason the Jets wanted this guy, and Brady showed exactly why he can be good, without exposing his liabilities. He's one the few corners in the NFL who can physically matchup with Moss. The passes were very impatient and very low risk-reward.

I think you need to look at the plays.
When Brady threw the ball on the first Int Moss was at the 35 and at worst a step behind Cromarite. Brady always takes that shot, and it is often successful. Cromartie beating Moss to the ball is on Moss, because there is no way he should.
On the second the ball hit Moss in the hand (should have been hands)

 

[emoney_33]

Thats what I thought also watching it live, but watching again, I disagree. I think he was looking off the safety. It happened a lot faster than Simms described. Watch where Moss is when Brady throws it, and how unthreatened he is by any rush. He fully expected that Moss had his man beaten. It is certainly possible that Welker was the first read, but when he saw Moss, it wasnt settling, Brady expected a TD and threw it exactly where he wanted to.
There is just no way he expected Cromartie to beat Moss to the 3 yard line.

Well I won't pretend to know what was in Brady's mind, but all I remember is him throwing it to Moss immediately after the coverage swallowed up Welker and not a moment sooner.

 

[WelshPat]

The 2nd INT is no-ones fault, that's just a great play by the safety... That's one of those where it's bad luck more than anything. Would have been a great catch by Moss if he had made it

 

[Yfz01]

I think you need to look at the plays.
When Brady threw the ball on the first Int Moss was at the 35 and at worst a step behind Cromarite. Brady always takes that shot, and it is often successful. Cromartie beating Moss to the ball is on Moss, because there is no way he should.
On the second the ball hit Moss in the hand (should have been hands)

As someone that is a huge fan of Moss - Moss, Welker, and Brady all know what kind of speed and athleticism Cromartie has. Cro is every bit as fast as Randy Moss is and Welker said Cro might be the fastest player in the league. I'd tend to agree, I remember a play in 07' where Cro almost chased down Adrian Peterson from out of the screen.

It was a blind heave to a Randy Moss that was behind one of the fastest CBs in the league. Edit - I said it was a terrible throw and decision, but it was on third and long and was a more effective punt, so I take that back. The play was supposed to go to Welker, but he made a mistake sitting in double coverage.

The second interception is on Brady too. Moss was perfectly covered, it would have been a sick one handed catch (that was almost made) and ended up being a beautiful INT by the safety.

 

[Ring 6]

Well I won't pretend to know what was in Brady's mind, but all I remember is him throwing it to Moss immediately after the coverage swallowed up Welker and not a moment sooner.

As I said Simms had me convinced of the same thing until I rewatched it myself. Regardless of who he looked at first, he had the coverage he wanted on Moss, and Moss was where Brady wants him to be when he let go.
Mike Shanahan used to tell WRs if you cant beat man coverage John Elway has 7 car dealerships you can go work at. I think Moss can be held to that standard. He simply did not bust his butt on the route.

 

[Ring 6]

As someone that is a huge fan of Moss - Moss, Welker, and Brady all know what kind of speed and athleticism Cromartie has. Cro is every bit as fast as Randy Moss is and Welker said Cro might be the fastest player in the league. I'd tend to agree, I remember a play in 07' where Cro almost chased down Adrian Peterson from out of the screen.

It was a blind heave to a Randy Moss that was behind one of the fastest CBs in the league. An absolutely terrible throw and decision. The play was supposed to go to Welker, but he made a mistake sitting in double coverage.

The second interception is on Brady too. Moss was perfectly covered, it would have been a sick one handed catch (that was almost made) and ended up being a beautiful INT by the safety.

As a huge fan of Moss I would expect you to give him a pass.
Bottom line is Moss was at worst a step behind Cromartie at the 35 when the ball was thrown. Moss' greatest skill is that he can accelerate past any corner in the NFL in that situation.
The second hit him in the hand (should have been hands)

 

[Yfz01]

As a huge fan of Moss I would expect you to give him a pass.
Bottom line is Moss was at worst a step behind Cromartie at the 35 when the ball was thrown. Moss' greatest skill is that he can accelerate past any corner in the NFL in that situation.
The second hit him in the hand (should have been hands)

The second play was very similar to a catch Moss had in 08' against Miami, except he wasn't able to reel it in. Still not a good throw by Brady.

Moss can not just straight up run past Cromartie when Cromartie is in front of him. You think he is going to go around one of the fastest straight ahead runners in the league? Even if Moss is faster, he isn't going to gain five yards. Once he realized the ball was in the air, he put on the jets and made the tackle.

 

[zipster9]

Well I won't pretend to know what was in Brady's mind, but all I remember is him throwing it to Moss immediately after the coverage swallowed up Welker and not a moment sooner.

Brady's fault and the OC's fault.

You have 2 very good TE's who can catch the ball with THEIR hands. Yet, you don't even use them in the 2nd half? Don't tell me they were covered.

The problem is, as was late last year, was Brady is forcing to Moss. When the Patriots are successful, the ball is spread to RB, TE, WRs.

 

[Ring 6]

Brady's fault and the OC's fault.

You have 2 very good TE's who can catch the ball with THEIR hands. Yet, you don't even use them in the 2nd half? Don't tell me they were covered.

The problem is, as was late last year, was Brady is forcing to Moss. When the Patriots are successful, the ball is spread to RB, TE, WRs.

A play call that gets Moss in man to man coverage is a good call.
Tom Brady throwing the ball to Moss to the 3 yard line when he is a step behind the corner at the 35 with no one behind it is a decision he must make 100 times out of 100. But after Moss' perfomance on that and other throws yesterday, he may want to reconsider.
Can anyone seriously tell me that Brady shouldn't throw to Moss when he is man to man, and after what we have seen him do for 3 years, not expect him to accelerate past a corner a step ahead of him in the next 32 yards? If you can, you havent been paying attention.

 

[Rex Ryan's Gut]

A play call that gets Moss in man to man coverage is a good call.
Tom Brady throwing the ball to Moss to the 3 yard line when he is a step behind the corner at the 35 with no one behind it is a decision he must make 100 times out of 100. But after Moss' perfomance on that and other throws yesterday, he may want to reconsider.
Can anyone seriously tell me that Brady shouldn't throw to Moss when he is man to man, and after what we have seen him do for 3 years, not expect him to accelerate past a corner a step ahead of him in the next 32 yards? If you can, you havent been paying attention.

psst.. Cromartie is faster than anyone on the field.

 

[swheeler23]

The problem was not the int but the 3 and longs. You can not play a good defense with a lot of 3 and longs....

 

[spacecrime]

Throwing an INT is never a good idea, never got why people argue this.

You are thinking too simplistically.

You have to get past hard and fast rules. Sometimes you are better off with an INT than a punt. Sometimes you are better off taking an intentional safety than a punt. Sometimes it is better for a DB to drop a pass rather than intercept it.

If you can't accept these things, then, no, you will never get why people argue this point.

But condider: Both a punt and an INT result in a change of direction. WHen it is thrid and very long and you are deep in your own end, heaving the ball as far as you can when everyone is covered Here's how. 3rd and 13, everyone covered. Throw the ball away and punt it for 4 yards, or toss it as far as you can. It might be caught and it might be PI and it might in INC or it might be INT 50 yards down the field. Why is a 50 yard INT worse than a throw away and a 45 yard punt? Especially when there is a possiblity of PI or a catch.

And BTW, didn't the Jets end up scoring a TD on that drive?

This is probably the worst analysis of the day. The Jets were pinned on the 3 yard line. To argue that pinning a team on their own three is a bad idea because they ended up scoring a TD is nonsensical.

 

[Ring 6]

psst.. Cromartie is faster than anyone on the field.

It doesnt matter who has better straight line speed. Moss knows he is running a go. The corner must backpedal, turn tbeir hips and run. If that happens with a one step separation Moss will accelerate past any corner who has even played, if he goes all out. A running start compared to backpedalling, open your hips, and turning and running is different than competing in a 40 yard dash.

 

[emoney_33]

Brady's fault and the OC's fault.

You have 2 very good TE's who can catch the ball with THEIR hands. Yet, you don't even use them in the 2nd half? Don't tell me they were covered.

The problem is, as was late last year, was Brady is forcing to Moss. When the Patriots are successful, the ball is spread to RB, TE, WRs.

OK I won't tell you since you've made up your mind that no team can possibly cover the HOF TEs we have.

 

[Ring 6]

The second play was very similar to a catch Moss had in 08' against Miami, except he wasn't able to reel it in. Still not a good throw by Brady.

Moss can not just straight up run past Cromartie when Cromartie is in front of him. You think he is going to go around one of the fastest straight ahead runners in the league? Even if Moss is faster, he isn't going to gain five yards. Once he realized the ball was in the air, he put on the jets and made the tackle.

He didnt need to make up 5 yards they were almost even and Cromartie was still turning his hips when the ball was thrown.
There is simply no question that if Moss went after that ball like he did the TD he gets there first. Why he didn't I dont know, maybe he never expected the ball because he was a 3rd option....he didnt throw his hand up, and he most certainly did not give his best effort getting to the 3 yard line as fast as he can.

 

[upstater1]

I'm not altogether sure what you're getting at. Are you arguing that Brady had no intention of completing that throw to Moss? If so, we are at an impasse.

I'm saying that if he throws an incomplete, they punt on 4th down.

So you might as well heave it up.

 

[Yfz01]

He didnt need to make up 5 yards they were almost even and Cromartie was still turning his hips when the ball was thrown.
There is simply no question that if Moss went after that ball like he did the TD he gets there first. Why he didn't I dont know, maybe he never expected the ball because he was a 3rd option....he didnt throw his hand up, and he most certainly did not give his best effort getting to the 3 yard line as fast as he can.

I keep watching the play and Cromartie probably has 3 yards on Moss at the time of the throw. By the time Cromartie catches it, Moss has closed the distance considerably but realized he couldn't get to it (he even tried to cut in and get position, but wasn't close enough)

 

[emoney_33]

It doesnt matter who has better straight line speed. Moss knows he is running a go. The corner must backpedal, turn tbeir hips and run. If that happens with a one step separation Moss will accelerate past any corner who has even played, if he goes all out. A running start compared to backpedalling, open your hips, and turning and running is different than competing in a 40 yard dash.

I re-watched it, Cromartie is not ever back pedaling. He's running straight with Moss the whole time. Cromartie had position on Moss the entire time and Moss cannot simply run through him.

On the 2nd one, Cromartie is with him the whole time and in position, but Moss makes a talented move making Cromartie's momentum take him past him while he leaps up for a one armed attempt, which would have been an amazing catch but it bounced off his hand. As he tried to coral the tip, Cromartie got his footing back and got between Moss and the ball, at which point it was impossible for him to make the catch while the safety scooped it.

I can see the argument that Moss could have caught that with his 1 hand (as well as the early deep pass in his hands in the endzone) but I hesitate at saying he -should- have made those amazing catches.

Note that the 2nd INT was a throw with more touch and giving Moss a better chance to make a play at the ball, of which he did make a tremendous attempt and was very close to a spectacular highlight reel catch. Looking back it actually doesn't look like either play was a bad decision by Brady, the first one was an overthrow and the 2nd one was a more risky chance that just ended up going bad (Moss isn't going to let the ball bounce off his hand too many times), but Cromartie had his head upfield so it wasn't a terrible decision to throw that lob.