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The greatest president

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Patters, Jan 28, 2007.

  1. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Here's a link to an interesting Wikipedia article on how various groups have ranked the American presidents:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_rankings_of_United_States_Presidents

    About halfway down the page, they have a 1982 ranking of presidents by both conservative and liberal historians. What's interesting is how similar the rankings are. I suspect the only change since that time would be that conservatives would probably include Reagan in the top 10. Both lists rank Truman in the top 10, but I would never include him solely because he used atomic bombs, which was a mistake of incalculable proportion.
  2. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    My top 5 match the list, with the exception of Washington being # 2 on ANY poll - that's insane. Reagan's standing has been exaggerated because he happenned to be in the right place at the right time. "Outspending" your enemy to collapse, while a better option than war, was a costly and easy strategy.
  3. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    Yeah they should have invaded the Japanese mainland instead.
  4. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    WWII:
    We fought to win in those days.

    Murtha, Cindy, Fonda, and the rest of Hollywood would all have gone to prison in 1942.

    If Japan had "The Bomb" before we did California wouldn't exist today.

    The Japanese of the Twenties Thirties and Forties were a very Brutal Cruel People, they wanted a war, we gave them one.
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2007
  5. PressCoverage

    PressCoverage Banned

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    for all our quarrels, i can't say i disagree with this post above...

    which is why i summarily dismiss Con men's endless WW2 parallel's, across the board...

    Japan was a true imminent threat... Iraq was a paper tiger from 1991 forward... there's no two streets about it... inspections and sanctions had them completely in check... if you disagree, read a book about post Gulf War Iraq...
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2007
  6. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Here's a good article on the subject:

    http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0806-25.htm

    At the very least, we could have first demonstrated the power of the bomb on uninhabited islands.

    My objection to dropping the atom bomb is not only moral, it has made the bomb a legitimate weapon in war. When someone else finally uses the bomb, no one will believe us if we try to take the moral high ground.
  7. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    It never fails. Iraq and/or bush hate has to find it's way into every thread. It really is amazing how this always happens.
  8. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    Yeah, afterall, we've been dropping in every war since.

    What Patters doesn't understand, of course because he knows history and I don't, is that the Japs didn't plan on surrendering after we dropped the first bomb. The Japanese were serious savage primitives when it came to war. They literally faught to the death, as they viewed surrender as being utterly shameful. On the islands battles like Okinawa and Iwo Jima, we had to bury them alive in the caves they were shooting out of. In Indo-China the atrocities they committed, on a massive scale mind you, were akin to, or worse than those of the Nazi's against the Jews. Blowing up a rock in the middle of the sea, and asking the Japs to surrender, would not have worked. The only thing savage primitives understand is raw force.
  9. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Your a victim of WWII propaganda. What your saying the line that Americans promoted during the years following the war. It sounds like the last thing you read on the subject was in high school, if then. By the time we dropped the bomb, the Japanese fleet was destroyed; Stalin had agreed to help us; and, though the military was pro war, there was a peace movement in Japan, and the emporer was vacillating on the issue. Many people, including Eisenhower and Nimitz, felt it was unnecessary to drop the bomb. While we haven't used the bomb since, it's no secret that Bush has talked of using bunker busting nuclear bombs, and our enemies may feel as you feel about Japan -- the only way to get the U.S. war hawks to surrender is to use nuclear weapons.
  10. PatsFanInEaglesLand

    PatsFanInEaglesLand Rookie

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    #37 Jersey

    No Patters you are a victim of left wing progressive revisionist history bull****. There was no peace movement in Japan!
  11. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I am ambivalent about the use of the bomb, primarily as there was so much "collateral damage", and the use of it hastened the end of WWII. It made sense at the time, but it made us look just like the Japanese in terms of value of human life.
  12. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    When I was in college, I took a course in Japanese history with a right-wing professor who espoused the WWII American propaganda point of view and wouldn't tolerate differences. (I finally caved and wrote what he wanted to hear in order to get a good grade.) At the time, I read quite a bit about Japan and in the course of several discussions like this have read more. While the Japanese military was firmly entrenched, our perspective on them was based on samurai stereotypes and the like.

    At any rate, Prince Konoe had started pursuing peace well before the bombing of Hiroshima. This article contains some good information.

    http://www.afsc.org/newengland/pesp/DecisionToUseABomb.htm

    The only argument in favor of the bombing, from my perspective, is that the Marshall Plan freed Japan of previous fascism, and in the long run did a lot of good. Had we negotiated peace with Japan, it's anyone's guess what kind of society would have evolved, but I suspect it wouldn't be like the Japanese society today.
  13. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    You're so right. I'm a victim of propoganda. The Japs were civil, they ran humanitarian efforts in Indo China. They never mistreated allied POW's, always surrendered when they knew they were cornered, or about to loose a battle, didn't feel an honorable death was more important than individual survival, and was actually looking for Truman's cell phone number to offer up their surrender before the first bomb fell.

    What a Fraud. Another lefty inserting GW into a thread where it bares no merrit. WTF does any of that crap, reported by the media, have to do with Japan and the A-bomb? Get a clue. Since you know histroy, and I don't, I guess the threat of nuclear artillery shells during the Korean War should be mentioned? How about the Cuban Missle Crisis? Should we mention that? WTF does any of that have to do with the A-bomb & Japan? Oh yeah, nothing. :cool:
  14. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    Do you have any idea of what the Japanese did to civilians in Indo-China? Beyond reading about the atrosities, I saw a program on the Histroy Channel about what the Japs were like. They mutilated EVERYONE they came across. They showed footage of kids without limbs, people with part of their skull missing, and babies chopped into pieces. They talked about how the Japs used people they conquered in medical and weapons experiments. Chopping off heads of some people and seeing if they could put it on the body of another, etc, etc....dropping the A-bomb, as horrific as it was (I've read, and seen accounts of how savage it's effects were) was an awful consequence of war. When you look at the circumstances of those days, the only given was that people were going to die. The question then becomes, are 80,000 deaths by A-Bomb worth the possible million deaths via invasion? That doesn't even take into account the massive humanitarian effects the mass bombings & destruction an invasion would cause all over the mainland. Dropping the A-bombs resulted in deaths and destruction, but it also saved lives & infrastructure, and prevented a massive humanitarian problem accross the entire country. It's awful in a human sense, but situations like these cannot always be decided with humanity in mind. That's reality unfortunately.
  15. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Lying is so unbecoming, RW. (1) I didn't say the Japanese were humanitarian. (2) I didn't say they never mistreated POWs. (3) I didn't say they easily surrendered. (4) Short term memory problems? You said, "Yeah, after all, we've been dropping in every war since. " So, I replied that we are in fact considering doing so, and cited Bush in that context. (5) All the nuclear threats occurred after the bombing of Hiroshima; that event helped proved that countries are not afraid to use such weapons and helped establish cases where they can be "legitimately" used. Obviously, "legitimate" is from the perspective of those who have the weapons.
  16. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    WE ARE NOT CONSIDERING NUKING IRAN. GET A FARGING CLUE.

    Ah, now I feel better. :D

    What you said was we should have tried to negotiate a "peaceful" surrender. Well, we WERE TRYING, they flashed us the finger, we nuked their arses, and guess what, then they FARGING SURRENDERED!

    IT WAS GEORGE BUSH'S FAULT DAMMIT!

    That Farging Icehole!

    [​IMG]
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2007
  17. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Again:
    WWII America Fought To Win

    And Win We Did

    All's Fair In Love And War

    If You Don't Hit Him

    He Will Hit You.

    What Should The World Do If Iran Uses A Nuke

    I know What Israel Will Do
  18. mikey

    mikey Rookie

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    I have no problem with that.

    If someone hit you, you hit back.

    But the problem is we hang the wrong guy.

    We sent 3,100 American boys to their death for nothing.

    The guy who hit us is living comfortably in Pakistan and Afghanistan, watching Fox News and laughing at George Bush and America.

    .
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2007
  19. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I SAW SOME OF THAT TV SHOW OF THE JAPANESE SOLDIERS IN CHINA, THE WORST THING I HAVE EVER SEEN ON TV WAS THOSE BASTARDS RIPPING LITTLE BABY'S OUT OF THEIR MOTHERS ARMS, THROWING THEM IN THE AIR AND CATCHING THEM ON THEIR BAYONETS WHILE THE SCREAMING MOTHERS WATCHED, THEN THEY WOULD RIP THE BABY'S STOMACH OPEN AND STAB THE MOTHER TO DEATH.

    WHEN AMERICA HEARD ABOUT THE A-BOMB BEING DROPPED ON THE LAND OF THE "JAP SAVAGE" AMERICA DANCED IN TIMES SQ (I WAS ONE OF THEM)

    MANY OF YOU MIGHT NOT BE HERE TODAY WERE IT NOT FOR "THE A-BOMB"

    REMEMBER, 'WAR IS HELL"---------WE WON

    JAPAN WOKE UP THE SLUMBERING GIANT AND THE GIANT KICKED THE
    SH!T OUT OF THEM.

    WHY IS IT PERMISSABLE TO CAll A PERSON FROM SWEDEN A "SWEDE" BUT NOT PERMISSABLE TO CALL A PERSON FROM JAPAN A "JAP" (because they were our enemy)????????

    NOW LIBERALS NOT ONLY DEFEND TODAYS ENEMY OF AMERICA THEY ARE STARTING TO SLOBBER OVER THE SNEAKY SAVAGE ENEMY OF YESTERYEAR.

    SOON THEY WILL BE MAKING A HERO OF HITLER.

    WHY IS THE LOONEY PHONY VICIOUS WORLD OF LIBERALISM ALWAYS AGAINST AMERICA, IS IT BECAUSE WE HAVE IT SO GOOD, IS IT BECAUSE WE ARE FREE, IS IT BECAUSE WE HAVE NEW HOMES, CARS, BOATS, PLENTY OF BEER, GOOD LOOKING WOMEN, GOOD HEALTH, WE VOTE FOR OUR LEADERS, WE ARE ALLOWED TO CALL OUR PRESIDENT A F-CKING A$S HOLE RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIS HOUSE AND NOBODY SHOOTS US, DO LIBERALS STILL CRAVE SOCIALIST COMMUNISM.

    MR GORBACHEV, "TEAR DOWN THAt F-CKING WALL"

    What A Friend We Have In Jesus
    All Our Sins And Grief To Bear

    What A Privalege To Carry
    Everything To God In Prayer
    :bricks:
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2007
  20. Turd Furguson

    Turd Furguson Rookie

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    Greatest Presidents?

    Reagan
    Lincoln
    Washington
    Truman
    JFK -he had stones to face down Kruschev and his choice of women put Billy Blue Dress to shame.

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