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the Globalization and Outsourcing conundrum

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by IllegalContact, Sep 6, 2012.

  1. IllegalContact

    IllegalContact Pro Bowl Player

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    there are many on the left side of the spectrum here who try to bash Romney for his heartless corporate reorganization that leads to outsourcing work that supposedly occured during his time at Bain.

    before being critical of anyone in this regard, people should understand that the outsourcing that happens is largely at the hand of bipartisan legislation including things like NAFTA that had a direct hand in the way globalization is evolving.......I say evolving because such as is obvious with China, over time, the industrialization of a 3rd world country happens in stages. First the commitment to jobs must happen, then the jobs get filled, then people in that country are better off and return the progress by buying more products from teh rest of the world......or so the theory goes.

    yes, there is alot of cost cutting and profiteering corporation can make in this process jsut as countless companies and politicians got ridiculously rich from the big dig.... and yet in the end, people still benefit.

    If the democrats have an issue with outsourcing, then they should not take it out on Romney, but they should rather take it out on Clinton because out of recent presidents, his contribution to globalization leads all other presidents.

    so the question to the democrats is: "Do you still have the patience within you to see globalization through, or is it time to reassess the legislation and consider more protectionism?"

    democrats need to be careful how they answer this because if they choose protectionism, then their theory of 'fairness to all' only goes as far as the border and will represent a shift much larger in magnitude and visibility than the no god/god thing.

    so in short, what Romney has done when it comes to outsourcing is basically what the democrats were complicit in when it comes to the goals of globalization.
     
  2. IllegalContact

    IllegalContact Pro Bowl Player

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    BTW....I don't have an answer in terms of what is best for our country, but some assured balance of trade is needed
     
  3. Drewski

    Drewski In the Starting Line-Up

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    IC - a couple of questions/statements and then an OT statement.

    1. Is your point regarding the POTUS responsible for upticks in globalization and outsourcing in regards to when it really took off, or when it first found its way to our vernacular? I assume the former, but am curious. I can speak for the shoe industry simply because of familiarity with it all. Nike was the "first" to outsource production to Korea in the 70s.

    2. Whether you (general term) are for or against outsourcing, there is one tried and true bene to it; cheaper goods (which I would argue is to the benefit of fellow citizens here at home). It would be quite something to see people's reactions to what they would spend on shoes if they all of the sudden were made here vs say China/Thailand/Indo/Vietnam.

    A shoe that costs 14 bucks to make (lower to medium range for sneakers), has a retail price of somewhere in the neighborhood of 56$. If you replaced the factory workers making +/- $60/month with someone making at least $1256/month (Fed min wage, 7.25/hr * 2080 working hours in a year/12) the costs of your goods goes up by at least that much (2094% increase in labor costs - not counting any increase in regulation costs).

    3. OT: Whoever is "responsible" POTUS wise for the increase in globalization I personally would say thank you to. They, albeit indirectly, gave me my life as a Third Culture Kid.


    D
     
  4. IllegalContact

    IllegalContact Pro Bowl Player

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    I agree......but for obama to use outsourcing against romney when it comes to election does not help the cause of globalization and how it can help EVERYONE in the US
     
  5. PatsFanSince74

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    IMO, you're analysis is correct.

    Unfortunately, the only highly visible person in the public debate who was right about the long term effects of NAFTA was our favorite crazy uncle, Ross Perot. As a businessman, he quickly understood it to be what thousands of businesspersons after him understood it to be: an opportunity to cut costs by moving jobs offshore and still be able to bring your more cheaply made goods back into the US to sell at a higher margin. He also saw that by clever but legal cost accounting most of those profits could be technically earned offshore and not be subject to US tax laws (there are currently $1.2 trillion of unrepatriated profits of US companies that cannot be taxed by the US).

    Where you are offbase is in thinking that somehow this can all be undone.

    Unfortunately, the horses of outsourcing broke through the fence a long time ago and they ain't gonna be rounded up in our lifetime. In other words, forget about "undoing" outsourcing. Outsourcing screwed the middle class and enabled corporations to improve their margins and that's just not going to change.

    President Clinton, whom I admire greatly, is in some sort of denial about all of this with fanciful ideas of adjusting corporate tax rates to make a return of currently outsourced production to the US attractive once again. He talks about reducing the corporate rate to 26%, but fails to understand that 26% is a lot higher than the zero that companies can now pay if they want to on much of their manufacturing.

    Most of us who supported untrammeled Free Trade and the lightly regulated Globalization of productive capacities have long ago realized the errors of our ways and done our mea culpas. Unfortunately, our apologies are too late to help the middle class.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2012
  6. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Pro Bowl Player

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    #75 Jersey

    [​IMG]
     
  7. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

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    #18 Jersey

    Regarding the bolded paragraph....

    There is and WILL be an "end-game" to all of this. And that will be once there are no longer places of "cheap" labor available to corporations. China is already almost there...no longer cheap to be "made in China".

    I have often written that the public corp. model is doomed. No company can infinitely earn increasing returns on investment at a greater rate than population and income growth.

    So once corporations all buy one another up and can longer find cheap labor, their returns (and stock value) will top-out. Change is no longer just "constant"...it's also accelerating at an alarming rate.

    Fun times!
     
  8. Drewski

    Drewski In the Starting Line-Up

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    Agree with the bolded part PR. In fact that is part of what my dad does. His last three overseas trips have been to get India and Bangladesh up to par to take on production which was done in China, although no longer can be because of cost.
     
  9. Titus Pullo

    Titus Pullo Banned

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    Newsflash: NAFTA was a Reagan-era baby, promoted by the Heritage Foundation. Clinton only pushed it through.

    Here's what we can learn from threads like these:

    Democrats should absolutely never reach across the aisle to appease and/or work "with" the GOP. **** them, because cons are just going to blame the left when their own ideology goes inevitably haywire, as it always does because it perpetually prays to the false god of finance.

    Clinton (for all his brilliance) was a corporate president who didn't have the ballz to tell the right to go **** themselves. Worse, he also fell for the myth that letting the free market "work itself out" is a sustainable paradigm on a very finite planet. It isn't, as we're learning currently.

    As I've said some dozen times, while the mechanisms are in place to run your business as you like, you as a CEO have a decision to make. You can be a little less of a billionaire, put your money where your mouth is and be a Patriot and keep your company in the United States. Or, you can maximize your own personal profit (and those of your cronies in the board room) by sending American workers home and shipping your business abroad for slave labor. Simple, really.

    All the rest of cop-out, horse****, convenient rationalization.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2012
  10. Titus Pullo

    Titus Pullo Banned

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    Absolutely correct.
     
  11. Drewski

    Drewski In the Starting Line-Up

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    Is this an honest phrase or a dramatic one?

    Been to quite a few third world factories in my life, and never seen a child (under 16) nor a slave working in one.
     
  12. Titus Pullo

    Titus Pullo Banned

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    I've been in a lot of bad neighborhoods, but never seen a murder. Though, I'm pretty sure they're well-documented. The bodies are unmistakable.

    Anyhow, do some Google work with words like "Unocal and Burma." Of course, the Bush Administration did it's best to block that case, but the affects of "globalization" are undeniable. Unless being forced to work at gunpoint isn't "slavery" to you.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2012
  13. Drewski

    Drewski In the Starting Line-Up

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    TP - Slave labor means something very specific to me (anyway). I would say slave labor (the term you used) means labor which is forced upon a person for no pay.

    In the eight years I lived in Jakarta I traveled to every factory the big 2 used (naturally they use the same factories).

    No one was forced to work there, in fact the lines for employment at the factories were huge; many times stretching a mile or so down the feeder roads to the factories, because, while pittance compared to US wages, $60/month was 6 times the national minimum wage (2000-01, I dont know what the wage rates are now).

    Now if you mean "slave labor" in the lineage of the Jessie Jackson, Kathy Gifford "They pay these people a dollar a day" hysteria that broke out in the 90s, fine, I'm just looking for that confirmation.

    I am not apologizing for corporations, lord knows they do more than their share of "*****ty" things; at least things that fly in the face of the betterment of "the whole" of us.

    I don't need to Google anything. I can go home and flip through my photo albums of Jakarta to know what things were and weren't (there anyway, which is what I was speaking to).

    EDIT - TP, my disagreement with what you wrote simply focused on the generality/absolutness of the statement.

    I'm not naive to think there aren't companies and factories that do in fact abuse workers. I'm sure, to your point, that it does happen.

    My point was your post read that, basically, that companies that do work overseas do it with "slave labor", no if, ands or buts. And that simply isn't true in many cases (again, speaking only to what I saw). Honestly the factories I did visits were nice. A/C, dormitories, electricity, kitchen areas, exercise areas. And those things are things that many of the local populations wouldnt have "at home". Not to mention, again, their wages were 6 times minimum wage.

    Having said all of that, I do get the gist people are hitting at. I don't have an answer for all of it. Profit is the only thing many businesses are in business for, and in this case profit flies in the face of the wider good; jobs at home. They will do what they need to do to ensure it's coming in. I would love shoes, clothes, toys, video games, electronics etc etc etc etc to be made here (whether again or for the first time). But I am not to sure how many people would buy their Air Jordan's at 600 a pair.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2012
  14. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

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    #18 Jersey

    So why don't we make public corporations obsolete? Private companies are better for society and for employees. Since we ALLOW corporations to exist, we can change the model if we feel like it.

    And even if we don't, I believe the model will be obsolete within 2-3 decades anyway.

    As I've told you and others here many times....I'm not a righty or a lefty...I say fug you to both parties because neither party represents our interests.

    Also, I don't believe anyone truly knows what the right thing to do is. If they do, they don't want to tell us.
     
  15. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    Umm many Americans own stock in public companies. You could not possible change the system now. You can change the laws to regulate their dealings in and with this country but come on PR - you're talking about grandma's nest egg here.
     
  16. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

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    #18 Jersey

    Nothing happens overnight IP! The end is inevitable anyway for public corporations....at least the way we know them now.
     
  17. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    The Facebook story shows public does not equal best.
     

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