The Front Seven - 2009 and 2010 as of now

[supafly]

mg--I just had to be the traditional smarta$$.

You'd have to go all the way back to the late 90's I'd imagine, maybe Katzenmoyer. Even then, he played MLB.

I agree with being better at ILB, and still somewhat unknown at OLB.

There are several options that I see, it'll be interesting to see how BB plays it out.

1. AD stays (very doubtful, especially given attitude and salary)
2. Crable stays healthy and contributes more and more throughout the year (doubtful, but he has shown flashes in TC/preseason + should have decent system knowledge)
3. Guyton moves to OLB (depending on Spikes/McKensie's development) a possibility
4. Burgess plays more base OLB and resigns (a possibility--although looking doubtful so far)
5. BB makes a vet signing TBA
6. Cunningham looks great from the get-go in the transfer from DE to OLB, and earns a spot in the base from flashes on 3rd down pass rushing situations (somewhat doubtful--due to the learning curve + transfer process, if anything he'll likely be blended in at times)
7. Training Camp battle between: Woods, Crable, Ninkovich, TBA vet or JAG

All in all, I love the ILB situation + think the OLB situation will end up being fine too. As of now there are still unknowns, but the possibility exists to have 3 out of 4 solid LB's in the ever important Belichick 3-4.

 

[jeffbiologist]

DEFENSIVE LINE (much improved)

We've added lots of potential help to the five players returning from 2009. We've lost Green and we've added two solid veterans in Lewis and Warren. We've also added Deaderick who could get lots of reps at DE.


I think that Belichick understands the void left by Seymour and Green.

Who will make the roster is very up in the air, as is the depth chart. None of the backups should feel that they are guaranteed a roster spot. I expect us to carry seven defensive linemen. We WILL improve our run defense and short yardage defense!

The BOTTOM LINE is that there is lots of work to do, but the talent and the pieces are there to make this a top defensive line.
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INSIDE LINEBACKERS (much improved)

Many idenitifed this as a weakness before the draft. We're fine now. We have two veteran starters. Mayo should be healthy and stronger. And we have two youngsters in Spikes and McKenzie who should compete for reps. As long as one of them is an OK backup this year, we are better off than in 2009.
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OUTSIDE LINEBACKERS AND PASSRUSHERS (worse for now)

Could we really be worse off compared to 2009?

I suppose the improvements at DL, ILB and CB could make this hole a bit smaller. Less will be required from this sad group, our weak link.

As of now, we bring back Banta-Cain, Woods, Thomas and Ninkovich from 2009. We have free agents Murrell. Crable is back. And yes, we drafted Cunningham, but I'm not sure how much we should expect from a first year patriot linebacker.

No matter how we slice and dice, this is the worst set of passrushers and outside linebackers competing for a playoff team.

At minimum, we need to bring back Burgess or a veteran replacement. At best, we will bring back Burgess AND trade for an outside linebacker.

Please tell me you arent serious thinking a 7th rd COMPENSATORY pick can even make the team never mind put in significant time.. Richard was a low round pick last year and was on the PS all year, he knows the defense by now and if he makes the team it will be questionable. Now it would be nice for the low round picks to outplay vets like Lewis and Warren but thats a very tall task.
As for OLBs
Banta Cain- servicable-makes the team
Ninkovich-mostly a ST/fill in guy-could make the team
Thomas-will cost about $5M this year so unless he redoes his contract-he's gone
Crable-the real wild card, may make the team but could be cut tomorrow
Woods-mostly a ST guy, can make the team but no major impact
Murrell-the only FA LB this year, dont know if he makes the team
Cunningham-rookie likely used as designated pass rusher like Tedi as a rookie
Burgess-yet unsigned, could come in if Thomas wont reneg or if Crable is cut.
Its important to note the difference between ILB and OLB this year because we lost 1 OLB and Thomas could be a salary casualty, no such problems at ILB.

 

[spacecrime]

Guyton was a starter only because someone had to be.

No, he started because he was better than any with whom he was in competition. And he returned. We didn't lose any OLBs in the offseason except Seau, so by definition ILB is as good as it was last year. Now add Brandon Spikes and Mackenzie, and if only one of them is better than eric Alexander then we are better at ILB than last year.

At OLB both Thomas and Burgess played OLB, and they are gone (or going). You could say that losing Thomas is addition by subtraction, but no matter how you look at it, the OLB position has lost players. If Cunningham turns out to be a gem, or if BB pulls off a late season trade (Disagree with the guy who said BB never trades for players after the draft) then we can be better.

Personally, I think pass rush effectiveness is closely tied to coverage. Cover the receivers for three seconds and a mediocre pass rush becomes much much better. And vice versa, of course.

 

[zimmy]

the pass rush may not be good this year but I don't know how anyone can say it will be worse than 2009. We are basically losing Thomas and Burgess, both of whom sucked last year btw. The pass rush of Thomas was especially non-existent. We are all worried because he's a so called "name" and he is being replaced by no names like Ninkovich and Crable but if you go by just production he was terrible. I'm sure we will bring in a cheap veteran presence and we may switch between 4 and 3 man lines. I also feel the added depth at inside linebacker will help the pass rush. Hopefully we will be better against the run and see some more pressure up the middle. There is still plenty of time to fix any issues Bill thinks we have but I feel our team has improved as a whole this week. And thats the name of the game - team building.

 

[Rob0729]

I meant outside linebacker, but your point is well-taken. Both Mayo and Guyton learned the system and contributed a lot in their rookie years. It can be done. I don't think Spikes will have any trouble on run downs.

What OLB did the Pats draft before the fifth round under Belichick before this year? I can only think of one and that is Shawn Crable. The fact of the matter is that prior to Mayo, Belichick never drafted a LB (outside or inside) prior to the fifth round. He has done it four other times - Crable (3rd round) who landed on IR each of his first two seasons, Tyrone McKenzie (ILB and 3rd round) who by reports had a good chance of competiting for the starting job prior to blowing out his knee, Cunningham, and Spikes.

I don't know if you can make the argument that Cunningham will not have a chance to play a significant role on defense because Belichick never given such a role to a rookie OLB because prior to this year, Belichick has never drafted an OLB as high as the second round. Doesn't mean I think he is guaranteed to start or play a significant role of any kind, but we are in virgin territory since Belichick has never had a rookie OLB that he has though high enough to draft in the second round or high prior to Cunningham.

 

[Don Kipines]

Warren is crap and Lewis hasn't played in the 3-4. The notion that the line is much improved is just wishful thinking. I hope your wish comes true, but don't start holding your breath waiting for proof.

Warren was a bad draft pick, but he's been a productive player for years. Moreover he's a big guy who's hard to move. Not really in the Jarvis Green mode at all. I think their idea is Warren at RDE on first and second downs, and he should help them against the run.

Damione Lewis was Carolina's best d-tackle last year. Again, he's not an all-pro, but collectively he and Warren are an upgrade over Mike Wright, who plays a lot better on the nose than at end.

 

[mgteich]

Some of "might make the team" OLB guys will make the team. We have five roster spots for OLB's and DE/OLB's. As of now the OLB's are Crable, Nickovich and Woods. The OLB/DE's are Banta-Cain and Cunningham. Murell and Alexander seem on the outside looking in. They are the special team guys hoping for a spot.

With regard to the DL, I do think that Deaderick will make the team. In any case, two of the following should make the team: Lewis, Warren, Deaderick and Richard. We need to find among them (and prehaps Pryor), the players to repalce Green's reps.

Please tell me you arent serious thinking a 7th rd COMPENSATORY pick can even make the team never mind put in significant time.. Richard was a low round pick last year and was on the PS all year, he knows the defense by now and if he makes the team it will be questionable. Now it would be nice for the low round picks to outplay vets like Lewis and Warren but thats a very tall task.
As for OLBs
Banta Cain- servicable-makes the team
Ninkovich-mostly a ST/fill in guy-could make the team
Thomas-will cost about $5M this year so unless he redoes his contract-he's gone
Crable-the real wild card, may make the team but could be cut tomorrow
Woods-mostly a ST guy, can make the team but no major impact
Murrell-the only FA LB this year, dont know if he makes the team
Cunningham-rookie likely used as designated pass rusher like Tedi as a rookie
Burgess-yet unsigned, could come in if Thomas wont reneg or if Crable is cut.
Its important to note the difference between ILB and OLB this year because we lost 1 OLB and Thomas could be a salary casualty, no such problems at ILB.

 

[satz]

For a team that plays 50% snaps in subpackages and other 50% spend between 3-4 and 4-3 alignment fans spend way too much on thr 3-4 OLB .

On most subpackage we will have Mayo and MacZzeanie/spikes/safety to cover a receiver TE .guyton is your nickel LB . so in theory you can play with 3 penerating tackles and 1 rush OLB. If 1 on the ILB or Guyton read that his coverage guy is staying in to block they rush .This is something we can play against say baltimore and colts with swaping a ILB for a safety.

Now in a more 3WR sets we put mayo and guyton in with 3 safeties . we played this more than our base 3-4 last year.


except to see this new formation.
we have more DL now and most important fact is more than 3 of them are all penerating tackles. I will used 3 to generating more presure. with banta stunting outside. In that i wil use Mayo , MacZ and spikes to stop the run with tackles rushing.One of the ILB is going to get a lane to shoot.

 

[mgteich]

We are focusing on pass-rushing OLB's and DE's because this is the one area where most of us see some remaining need.

Green used to be a pass-rushing DE. Burgess was a pass-rusher. Thomas was in that tole at time. All are gone. We are trying to explore the possibilities.

We want to know who will be pressuring the quarterback.

 

[atomdomb]

How are we worse at OLB?
You might as well consider Burgess being here in your analysis because we will sign him if we want to. I think we are choosing not to. We add Cunningham, theoretically Crable, and possibly Guyton. If we chose to not bring Burgess back it would be because we like the other guys better, and i dont really know how it could be any worse. The bar isnt very high for whoever gets the job of situational pass rusher from Burgess. Same holds true for AD, anyone we put out there cant be worse.

Guyton's speed is better used on the outside in my opinion. He wasn't able to shed blockers like a MLB has to in the 3-4. I think we may see him make a better impact from the outside and his speed may help the Pats get some pressure on the QB.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Guyton's speed is better used on the outside in my opinion. He wasn't able to shed blockers like a MLB has to in the 3-4. I think we may see him make a better impact from the outside and his speed may help the Pats get some pressure on the QB.

Still need to shed blockers at OLB, atombomb. Also he is not much of a pass rusher.

I like GG and believe that there is a place for him on the roster, but he just doesn't bring the physicalliy that the D needs at the LB spot as a starter.

 

[bucky]

We are focusing on pass-rushing OLB's and DE's because this is the one area where most of us see some remaining need.

Green used to be a pass-rushing DE. Burgess was a pass-rusher. Thomas was in that tole at time. All are gone. We are trying to explore the possibilities.

We want to know who will be pressuring the quarterback.

Pressure will come from McCourty blitzing from the nickel DB spot.

In all seriousness though (although the McCourty comment was only a half-joke), Green and Burgess were only effective in the sub packages - and they were replaced with Lewis and Cunningham. Is it an upgrade? Given the performance of those 2 guys last year, I would say worst case scenario is that it's a lateral move. In the base D, Green was ineffective and Burgess was never on the field. I think there are enough bodies to fill in adequately at DE. I have no idea what happens at OLB.

 

[FreeTedWilliams]

Do not sleep on Weston, he seems like a throw away pick, but is he has battled injuries during his UGA career. He is a four year starter, he has the size and speed to play the DE in the 3-4. Is he the next Richard Seymour, no, but he comes from the same system as Seymour, Henderson, Stroud, etc.......

Weston is huge 6-5 320, and ran a faster 40 than Spikes (4.99) the entire Georgia D-line has suffered serious injuries the last two years, dropping the stock of all of them. But a great pick for the Pats here, watch him make this team and at the very least replace Jarvius Green.......

 

[patsox23]

I actually went and looked up Matt Chatham's bio, but he's been out of the NFL for a year, so I'm guessing he's done.

Chatham was "done," even when he was still playing in the NFL.

 

[JMarr]

Still need to shed blockers at OLB, atombomb. Also he is not much of a pass rusher.

I like GG and believe that there is a place for him on the roster, but he just doesn't bring the physicalliy that the D needs at the LB spot as a starter.

We don't know whether he's capable of becoming a great OLB or not yet. Too small of a sample size and this will only be his third year in the league. Pass rushing, shedding blocks and setting the edge are all things that can be taught.

Guyton fit's BB's physical "prototype" for OLB almost perfectly and I believe he was playing ILB mainly due to injuries, not the fact that he was particularly bad as an OLB. With BB drafting McKenzie and Spikes, I see BB having Guyton compete for a starting OLB position this year. Regardless of he's successful, he is still great depth for us.

 

[RobertWeathers]

We don't know whether he's capable of becoming a great OLB or not yet. .

The odds of Gary Guyton becomming a great LB are slim to none. Based on his first two years in the league, the odds of GG having a solid NFL career as a backup and spot-starter are very good.

Too small of a sample size and this will only be his third year in the league. Pass rushing, shedding blocks and setting the edge are all things that can be taught. .

You can teach all of those things, but if you don't have the physical makeup, you can't execute at a high-level. That is my biggest issue w/ Guyton. 6-2 242 is not that big for an NFL OLB in a 3-4. In a 4-3 he is protected more for sure.

Guyton fit's BB's physical "prototype" for OLB almost perfectly and I believe he was playing ILB mainly due to injuries, not the fact that he was particularly bad as an OLB. With BB drafting McKenzie and Spikes, I see BB having Guyton compete for a starting OLB position this year..

He will compete. People compare GG to Roman Peiffer. RP was much more physical at the point of attack and because of his experience, better in coverage. GG is not at that level- yet. He will compete for a OLB spot but not in the 3-4 set. 4-3 and nickel/dime packages for sure.

Regardless of he's successful, he is still great depth for us.

No question. I'm glad he is on the team

 

[Ghost of Ben Dreith]

Do not sleep on Weston, he seems like a throw away pick, but is he has battled injuries during his UGA career. He is a four year starter, he has the size and speed to play the DE in the 3-4. Is he the next Richard Seymour, no, but he comes from the same system as Seymour, Henderson, Stroud, etc.......

Weston is huge 6-5 320, and ran a faster 40 than Spikes (4.99) the entire Georgia D-line has suffered serious injuries the last two years, dropping the stock of all of them. But a great pick for the Pats here, watch him make this team and at the very least replace Jarvius Green.......

Well.....he was worth taking a chance on him for sure.

I don't think we are necessarily better or worse than last year. That itself is an indictment on how we addressed this outside LB pass rush issue in the offseason.

I'm guessing if we do improve it will be via more blitzing/better blitz schemes coupled with a better LB corp and secondary than by actually having noticibly better personnel on the line. Everybody having another year under their belts helps too.

 

[JMarr]

You can teach all of those things, but if you don't have the physical makeup, you can't execute at a high-level. That is my biggest issue w/ Guyton. 6-2 242 is not that big for an NFL OLB in a 3-4. In a 4-3 he is protected more for sure.

Sorry, I didn't look up the numbers, but I thought Guyton was taller than 6-2. I think it remains to be seen if he can get to the QB consistently. Probably wishful thinking, but I just think he's much better suited on the outside. You're right, he probably will never be a "great" player, but look how long it took guys like Bruschi and Vrabel to "get it." Right around 3-4 years.

 

[spacecrime]

Sorry, I didn't look up the numbers, but I thought Guyton was taller than 6-2.

Neither did Weathers. I did. Guyton is 6'3", same as Colvin. See links below.

You can teach all of those things, but if you don't have the physical makeup, you can't execute at a high-level. That is my biggest issue w/ Guyton. 6-2 242

Well, that is a bit overstated. Barry Sanders was way too small to be a RB, and Drew Brees and Doug Flutie were way too short to be QBs.

I would say, if you don't have the physical makeup, you are less likely to be able to execute at a high-level.

Guyton is listed at 6'3"
Gary Guyton
the same as Rosie Colvin
Rosevelt Colvin

so to say he CAN'T execute at a high level isn't right. Whatever will keep Guyton from being special, it is not height.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

teigh

Over the weekend, Jim Mora Jr noted that five years ago, defenses were in base 60% of the time since then the situation has "reversed"....and then Dukes started talking....and talking...so the stats were never revealed.

How about working back by analyzing our 13 opponents and ideal personnel groupings for those 13 offenses.

Obviously, personnel groups for Indy/San Diego will be different than say a Green Bay and a Favreless Vikings.