The Fifth Element

[Mountain_Commando]

 

[DarrylS]

I'd like to think I know football well enough. I've coached a bit at the high school level, read lots of books, and watched lots of games. But I can't quite figure out the Patriots (or BB) mind set. I must be missing some key element. How do we end up heading into the season with such a miss mash at OLB? TBC on one end, and cast offs (and an unproven rookie) on the other? If our CBs success depends on putting pressure on the QB, how can we be putting all these young kids in a position to fail (IMO)? No pressure to make a trade? Pull Schobel out of retirement? Anything? Murrell? Nincovich, a former long snapper? Really? Thats it? Hell, I'd consider bringing back AD.

The hallmark of this team is that it is a meritocracy and based on that a lot of things are obvious. AD and Burgess did not fit that standard, they obviously did not want to make the extra effort and have hit the bricks.. interesting no other team has picked up AD.

How do you propose pulling a player who does not want to play in the NFL ( Schobel) any more out of retirement??? It all sounds good, but in reality probably cannot be operationalized except on message boards.

The other aspect that may provide comfort is that BB figured out how to use LT initially as a position coach and later as a d coordinator.. have felt for a while now that the pass rush is not exclusive to the OLB, we have a lot of other positions from where it can come..

If you really believe that BB is putting "these kids in a position to fail" then you are not paying attention closely... do not believe that BB would put any of these players or this team in a position to fail.. based on what we have seen putting this team in a position to fail is foreign to Mr. Kraft and to think that this whole organization would sit back and allow any part of this team to fail is folly at best... it makes no sense except on internet message boards, or maybe on talk radio.

OTOH do I believe that there will be rough spots, the short answer is yes... but overall am looking at a 11+ games won..

This whole thing reminds me of friday nite when I was driving home in the "hurricane" was listening to someone called Damon on 98.5, he was contending that BB is burnt out.. and compared him to Shula, Landry, Parcells, Knoll and other long term coaches... did not call but have to keep in mind that BB has coached this team to 9 consecutive winning seasons... that does not sound like a burnt out coach to this viewer.

 

[IllegalContact]

This whole thing reminds me of friday nite when I was driving home in the "hurricane" was listening to someone called Damon on 98.5, he was contending that BB is burnt out.. and compared him to Shula, Landry, Parcells, Knoll and other long term coaches... did not call but have to keep in mind that BB has coached this team to 9 consecutive winning seasons... that does not sound like a burnt out coach to this viewer.

Shula had 2 losing seasons out of 26......he never burned out, he just didn't win a thing after his 4th year.....tons and tons of playoff appearances. You could certainly draw a parallel with BB at this point.

Noll went 13 years without a losing record with 11 playoff appearances. You could say he burnt out after that, but BB ain't at that point yet and could still get there.

Coaches come up with recipes that work for a few years because of the players that they had at the moment, then chase the same recipe even though the players have changed.

You could argue that BB's arrogance and only his arrogance lost them the SB to the giants.

The current group of OLB's stink. There is no 'wait until they mesh' .... A pass rush is an individual effort, unlike a S learning to work with a CB

 

[NYCPatsFan]

Shula had 2 losing seasons out of 26......he never burned out, he just didn't win a thing after his 4th year.....tons and tons of playoff appearances. You could certainly draw a parallel with BB at this point.

Noll went 13 years without a losing record with 11 playoff appearances. You could say he burnt out after that, but BB ain't at that point yet and could still get there.

Coaches come up with recipes that work for a few years because of the players that they had at the moment, then chase the same recipe even though the players have changed.

You could argue that BB's arrogance and only his arrogance lost them the SB to the giants.

The current group of OLB's stink. There is no 'wait until they mesh' .... A pass rush is an individual effort, unlike a S learning to work with a CB

Tantalizing insight! Keep em coming!! :bricks:

 

[Off The Grid]

* Burn Out?? *

Shula.

Noll.

Landry.

These guys did not "burn out", a la **** Vermeil, an excellent man and good Coach who burned a little too intensely for his own good.

***

All that happened with these guys was a combination of 2 things:

1 ~ The rest of the league adapted to their tactics, which they were not innovative enough to substantially change.

2 ~ The wave of great talent that they rode to the Top got old and was replaced by decent, but not spectacular, talent.

***

1 ~ There's no way around it: Coach B's 3-4 D now has LIBRARIES of Book written, by now, about how to combat it...

Of course: The Beast that Bill Walsh Built won a Super Bowl 13 years after its first one, even though, by then, everybody knew ALL about the WCO.

2 ~ Coach Bill has been relentlessly fanatical about avoiding Salary Cap Hell.

More importantly, he has become, by far, THE greatest Draft Day Wheeler + Dealer in ALL the land, and, since Pioli left, is actually pulling FARTHER away from the Pack!!

Not only has he commanded two consecutive brilliant Drafts...he has RAKED the rest of the league, committing Draft Day Grand Theft on multiple occasions...The composite result of which is ~ presently ~ to command, by far, the greatest Depth of Talent this team has had, in the Imperial Era...and poised to launch ~ next year, I believe ~ a newer and even more dominant ~ even devastating ~ Dynasty.

 

[IllegalContact]

Tantalizing insight! Keep em coming!! :bricks:

The truth is harsh at times

 

[IllegalContact]

Re: * Burn Out?? *

Walsh had a top 3 defense to go along with the WCO

Shula.

Noll.

Landry.

These guys did not "burn out", a la **** Vermeil, an excellent man and good Coach who burned a little too intensely for his own good.

***

All that happened with these guys was a combination of 2 things:

1 ~ The rest of the league adapted to their tactics, which they were not innovative enough to substantially change.

2 ~ The wave of great talent that they rode to the Top got old and was replaced by decent, but not spectacular, talent.

***

1 ~ There's no way around it: Coach B's 3-4 D now has LIBRARIES of Book written, by now, about how to combat it...

Of course: The Beast that Bill Walsh Built won a Super Bowl 13 years after its first one, even though, by then, everybody knew ALL about the WCO.

2 ~ Coach Bill has been relentlessly fanatical about avoiding Salary Cap Hell.

More importantly, he has become, by far, THE greatest Draft Day Wheeler + Dealer in ALL the land, and, since Pioli left, is actually pulling FARTHER away from the Pack!!

Not only has he commanded two consecutive brilliant Drafts...he has RAKED the rest of the league, committing Draft Day Grand Theft on multiple occasions...The composite result of which is ~ presently ~ to command, by far, the greatest Depth of Talent this team has had, in the Imperial Era...and poised to launch ~ next year, I believe ~ a newer and even more dominant ~ even devastating ~ Dynasty.

 

[nantucketguy]

I def disagree with bringing back AD. He is like Seymour and Manny for the Red Sox, they dont want to be here. There is no sense bringing them back. But I agree. We are going to be soft on defense. We have to drop back more because of our lack of pass rush and we are going to give up a lot of yards. Hopefully as the field gets shorter and things get tighter, give hold them to field goals instead of TD's. Then, we have to out score them, obviously. But hopefully, as we said with Cassel, there is a system that the players need to uphold. BB has taken no namers and turned them into heros on both off and def sides of the ball. Vrabel and Bruschi were both 3 round picks who turned into leadership roles in 3 SB wins and 1 other near perfect season.

So let's see....then we *****

 

[signbabybrady]

I'd like to think I know football well enough. I've coached a bit at the high school level, read lots of books, and watched lots of games. But I can't quite figure out the Patriots (or BB) mind set. I must be missing some key element. How do we end up heading into the season with such a miss mash at OLB? TBC on one end, and cast offs (and an unproven rookie) on the other? If our CBs success depends on putting pressure on the QB, how can we be putting all these young kids in a position to fail (IMO)? No pressure to make a trade? Pull Schobel out of retirement? Anything? Murrell? Nincovich, a former long snapper? Really? Thats it? Hell, I'd consider bringing back AD.

You said you coached high school before?

You never had players come in who you expected to be stars only to not contribute much (to the point where you had to cut him or maybe you kept him not to hurt feelings but certainly would have cut if you were paying).

You never had a kid come in that you weren't expecting much out of and they turned out to be a star or key contributor.

Bottom line is you get to bring 80 into camp and generally you dont get the best players at every position to come into your camp and the players are at all different stages of their career and can be to raw or to run down to make it along with tons of other reasons.

I am not saying that OLB is going to be a stud position on this team this year but I say all this because I assure you that BB brought in the 4 or so OLBs of the 8 or so that he had at camp that he feels can best help this team they may not be pro bowlers but it was the best he came up with this year. Kinda like WR was a mess last year you never know how things can shake out.

 

[DarrylS]

The truth is harsh at times

Or one's perception of the truth...

 

[bucky]

Perhaps he appeared to be a beast during practices so much so that nothing else needed to be addressed at the position, other than cutting the incumbent starter (Burgess).

Burgess was never a starter at OLB. Unless you want to count the 3 pre-season games in which he sucked. The situation at OLB has been dire for the past year. So I'm not sure why all of a sudden you would panic about it now.

 

[Iron Helmet]

I hope that's not Cunningham...

 

[Synovia]

The current group of OLB's stink. There is no 'wait until they mesh' .... A pass rush is an individual effort, unlike a S learning to work with a CB

They'er almost entirely young guys. How do you know they stink?

 

[Iron Helmet]

How do you propose pulling a player who does not want to play in the NFL ( Schobel) any more out of retirement??? It all sounds good, but in reality probably cannot be operationalized except on message boards.

Apparently the Texans are attempting to "operationalize" the idea. And though they have location as an advantage in their negotiations, I'm sure BB could level the playing field by showing up at Schobel's house with Tom Brady, Moss and a handful of SB rings.

Texans interested in Schobel, Leinart | ProFootballTalk.com

[/QUOTE]If you really believe that BB is putting "these kids in a position to fail" then you are not paying attention closely... do not believe that BB would put any of these players or this team in a position to fail.. based on what we have seen putting this team in a position to fail is foreign to Mr. Kraft and to think that this whole organization would sit back and allow any part of this team to fail is folly at best... it makes no sense except on internet message boards, or maybe on talk radio. [/QUOTE]

Nothing is permanent. Neither is BB's success. And though I root for them whole heartedly, at some point, the curve will begin to slope the other way, for various reasons. One of which may be BB's arrogance and fidelity to his system approach. As we are seeing, we had quite a collection of PLAYERS in the past. Add the scheme, and you have SBs. You can't have ultimate success without both. So could these players be in a position to fail? Of course. Is it purposeful? No.

Would the Kraft's allow it? Yes. Because of this reason: BB has MAD cache. And you don't get rid of something until you are certain it is broken, especially when it has provided you with great success in the past. Is it broken? I don't know. Could it be? Certainly.

 

[Synovia]

Nothing is permanent. Neither is BB's success. And though I root for them whole heartedly, at some point, the curve will begin to slope the other way, for various reasons. One of which may be BB's arrogance and fidelity to his system approach. As we are seeing, we had quite a collection of PLAYERS in the past. Add the scheme, and you have SBs. You can't have ultimate success without both. So could these players be in a position to fail? Of course. Is it purposeful? No..

Could you please explain exactly what System BB is sticking to?


I've seen this team play about 5 different offensive schemes, and 10 different defensive schemes in the last 5 years.

 

[DarrylS]

Is it broken? I don't know. Could it be? Certainly.

Sounds that you are certain that it is broken, when in reality we do not know.. interesting comments.. come back in week 17 and we will have a more intelligent discussion.. until then will let the soothsaying go to the prognosticators.

There is no contesting that things have not worked out, but many folks are looking to that one sexy player who can get 20 sacks as some type of panecea.. while in reality, he does not exist.. this is a team game, and for everyone of you naysayers there are folks on the other side who believe that BB will field a very well coached, talented team that is good for at least 10 wins...

 

[IllegalContact]

They'er almost entirely young guys. How do you know they stink?

because they stank last year, and they've added cunningham who missed a decent portion of camp.

tully banta cain is the best they have. that speaks volumes. and he's no spring chicken, either.

they're not good because they haven't done anything to warrant being called so.

 

[DarrylS]

because they stank last year, and they've added cunningham who missed a decent portion of camp.

tully banta cain is the best they have. that speaks volumes. and he's no spring chicken, either.

they're not good because they haven't done anything to warrant being called so.

And you have decided this after 4 preseason games of vanilla defense.. and based on last year. Team Defense is more than the addition of Cunningham, there have been other additions as well.

Team Defense is not just the pass rush...

At this point no team has warranted to be called much, except on internet message boards and what the sports mediots want you to think..

 

[Iron Helmet]

Burgess was never a starter at OLB. Unless you want to count the 3 pre-season games in which he sucked. The situation at OLB has been dire for the past year. So I'm not sure why all of a sudden you would panic about it now.

Because we actually had a chance to remedy the situation this offseason and didn't. Duh.:bricks:

 

[Iron Helmet]

And you have decided this after 4 preseason games of vanilla defense.. and based on last year. Team Defense is more than the addition of Cunningham, there have been other additions as well.

Team Defense is not just the pass rush...

At this point no team has warranted to be called much, except on internet message boards and what the sports mediots want you to think..

In a league that is favoring the pass more and more, with rule changes to incentivize it, a successful pass rush will be the lynch pin of the modern day NFL defense. Can you name the cornerbacks on the Giant Team that beat us in the SB?

On the whole, our personnel has essentially remained the same, quality wise: Chung has not proven to be an upgrade IMO. McCourty is legit, but he will be replacing Bodden. Spikes is legit, but he will be offsetting the loss of Warren. And no one is offsetting the weakness at OLB, unless Cunningham is the answer.