The European Union

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by PatriotsReign, Nov 12, 2011.

  1. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

    #18 Jersey

    Great video illustrating the intensity and dire situation of the European Union...

    It's only about 3 minutes of powerful & shocking discussion.

    Nigel Farage..i want you all fired. what the EU should be 06 07 11.flv - YouTube

    This also...

    "Traders said Greece has turned to Iran as the supplier of last resort despite rising pressure from Washington and Brussels to stifle trade as part of a campaign against Tehran's nuclear program.

    The near paralysis of oil dealings with Greece, which has four refineries, shows how trade in Europe could stall due to a breakdown in trust caused by the euro zone debt crisis, which is threatening to spread to further countries."
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2011
  2. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa Supporter Supporter

    It's interesting to me that, to date, the "haves" among the Europeans are (if haltingly) still backing their decision to be Europeans, economically speaking, rather than constituent nationalities.

    Frankie Valli - Grease (1978 Clip) - YouTube
  3. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

    #18 Jersey

    Whether or not they desire to remain in the EU won't change their status as "Europeans"...but I get your point.

    This is a tough one. If I were a citizen of a European nation, I wonder if I'd want to remain part of the EU. Even if I lived in a "have not" Euro nation, I think I still might want out.

    Guess that's one reason for the word "contagion"...among several others.

    We could take what is happening to the EU and apply it to the US if states start to default on their debt at some point.

    California is in dire straights right now with revenues down over 6%. They have automatic "austerity" measures in place (i.e. automatic spending cuts)'s a mess there too.

    BTW....I never liked that movie
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2011
  4. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa Supporter Supporter

    Or Europe could -- again -- take what happened in the United States, and apply it to Europe.

    The same arguments -- debt, sovereignty, have states, have-not states -- were the coin of the realm when the Federalist Papers were published.

    Indeed, just such "catastrophic" early events -- especially debt -- were the ground in which the seeds of our union were planted.

    The Europeans would do well to read them -- as would the Americans.

  5. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

    The Euro and EU as we know it is toast. Whether they boot the bottom feeders, disolve the union and currency, or downsize in some way, something has to give. I personally feel that Italians would be much better off with their own currency. The same goes for Spain, Greece, Portugal, etc. All the Euro has done is inflate the cost of the average citizens lives to levels unseen. When I ask my friends and family there if they were better off before the inception of the Euro, or afterward, the answer is always before.
  6. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa Supporter Supporter

    At present, it's a lot like if you took one of the "have" states that get taxed for national projects and get less back than their dollar (such as Massachusetts or Virginia,) gave them full sovereignty, and asked them whether they want to continually bail out leeches like Texas, where the benefits and jobs those taxes go to go.

    Germany is Massachusetts. Greece is Texas. Sovereign debt is Europe's version of our uneven distribution of federal taxation outcomes.

    That was also something like the case in the era when the states were arguing the Constitution. There was not yet a mechanism for this system, but we all walked into it, with eyes open, knowing we'd form a union and those with more would help those with less.

    Now that said, we don't know which way Europe will go. It's the 21st century, not the 18th.

    It's a matter of whether the haves can continue to sell the notion that they'll absorb the mis-steps of the have-nots.

    If I'm a German, why do I have to accept some amount of "austerity" so Greece doesn't fold? The answer of course is that the damage is done. You can't escape the collapse of Greece if you have money that's somehow tied up in Greece or tainted by Greece. The banks, as we all know, are globally interwoven; and within the Eurozone they may as well have zero nationality whatsoever.

    Even from a cold and distanced perspective, it may well be more painful to somehow cut ties with "Europe" than to absorb the crisis in Europe's southern tier. Stop the bleeding at Greece, prop up Italy and Spain, and you're halfway there. Don't, and nobody can really tell you the outcome, but it ain't good.

  7. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

    #18 Jersey

    I'd say California is more like Greece than Texas right now...but I guess either one fits the profile.

    It is tough for Europe...maybe even frightening. I wouldn't be surprised to see us get into this bailout directly although I wouldn't like it. European countries in the EU just don't have the same "I am an citizen of the United States of America" mentality or patriotism (if you will).

    If you watched any of the video link in my opening post, I like what Nigel had to say although I don't know if represents the feelings of citizens of the EU. It appeared many of his fellow politicians didn't care for it...self-preservation and all.
  8. The Brandon Five

    The Brandon Five Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

    #75 Jersey

    Regardless of what their betters decide, you have to wonder how long the people in places like Germany (who retire at 67) will be okay with bailing out people in places like Greece (who retire at 61 and are fighting against plans to raise it to 63).

    BBC NEWS | Europe | German MPs raise retirement age
    BBC News - Greece plans to ban early retirement
    German Chancellor on the Offensive: Merkel Blasts Greece over Retirement Age, Vacation - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International
  9. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

    Texas is Greece? More like California is Greece. The problem with the tax line your using, is that we've never seen a breakdown, or explanation of how the dollars out versus dollars in is actually calculated.

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