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The End Of Cowboy Diplomacy

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by IcyPatriot, Jul 9, 2006.

  1. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey

    http://www.drudgereport.com/flash3.htm

    Interesting...should be good..Times writers are always a good read.

    Credit for this will go and should go to Condoleeza Rice
    who is the only person on earth the stubborn Bush listens to...we'll see.

     
  2. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Slowly Bush (and the American people) learn that Clinton was right.
     
  3. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey


    For the most part...history has shown that Bush is too much cowboy and that Clinton trusted the FBI and CIA too much.

    So, what would have been different...we'll never know. But the loss of life would have been less, whatever tragedies would have happened.

    This is why I like John Edwards...I see him as a great administrator who also has the great talent of listening.
     
  4. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You know what, F.B.N? We agree. I'm leaning towards Edwards, too, but primarily because he's the one candidate ethical enough to talk about poverty in America, an issue that the Democrats (and Republicans) have ignored since Reagan.
     
  5. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey

    I liked him last election and wished he were on the top of the ticket. I remember you liked him also but he wasn't at the top of the list. If I remember correctly you liked Sen. Evan Bayh...either one of these men would make a fine President.

    Even though I lean right I don't like any of the candidates so far..and that includes Giuliani. I would consider Rice if she came out more to the center on all the issues...but she has not declared anything so why bother.

    What America needs is an all purpose candidate. Not a budget candidate or a war candidate...sometimes 2nd or 3rd best is the best person anyways because they are usually more rounded.
     
  6. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Perhaps this is what we need as I am not inspired by any of the "front runners" and view them as 4 more years of the same old. Not sure who the 2nd or 3rd person might be though. I also think you need to frame what the actual issues are and pick a very decisive way to approach them with a diverse thinking staff.
     
  7. mikey

    mikey In the Starting Line-Up

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    Unfortunate, the end of this reckless "Cowboy" diplomacy comes too late for 2,600 American soldiers, thousands of American boys who lost their arms and legs, and over 60,000 innocent Iraqi children and civilians.

    .
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2006
  8. ctpatsfan1

    ctpatsfan1 On the Game Day Roster

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    Yeah but I bet those 20 million or so Iraqi's that no longer have to live under the cruelty and dictatorship of Hussein and his henchmen, particularly the family members of the 300,000 he killed don't feel the same as you do.
     
  9. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    ctpatsfan1, do you really think that right now Iraq is a better place to live than when Saddam was in place? Saddam killed primarily his enemies, though what he called an enemy was fairly broad. Now, ordinary civilians like those who were killed on 9/11 die every day. Saddam had a functioning economy; now there's massive unemployment and 100s of 1000s of people have been displaced. Under Saddam, people had power and basic services, now many people don't or have them infrequently. You can say Saddam was evil and deserved to be disposed, but don't claim to know how the Iraqis feel. Try to document your claim, rather than talk ignorantly, as if you only read Republican propaganda.

    The most recent poll I could find reports some good news, but also reports major bad news:

    http://abcnews.go.com/International/PollVault/story?id=1389228

    Fewer than half, 46 percent, say the country is better off now than it was before the war. And half of Iraqis now say it was wrong for U.S.-led forces to invade in spring 2003, up from 39 percent in 2004.

    The number of Iraqis who say things are going well in their country overall is just 44 percent, far fewer than the 71 percent who say their own lives are going well. Fifty-two percent instead say the country is doing badly.
     
  10. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Actually Saddam's enemies were ordinary civilians, and it's Al Queda and some of his at large henchmen that are still doing the killing. The difference is that now the US and Iraqi militaries are hunting and killing his henchmen.
     
  11. ctpatsfan1

    ctpatsfan1 On the Game Day Roster

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    How many say they believe their future is brighter? Go look up those numbers and get back to me. Right now Al-Qaida and the remaining insurgency are the fly in the oinment, but that will change over time.

    http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/051001/2005100125.html
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2006
  12. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Yes, their future is brighter since 2004, but later in the poll people indicate that they think the invasion was wrong and things were better (or at least no worse) under Saddam. While they think things will improve, that simply means they are hopeful, not, as you originally claimed, that the people are happy to no longer live under Saddam. The poll contradicts that claim. Perhaps it's because over 40,000 civilians have been killed as a result of our invasion.

    Among businesspeople, who probably have jobs, a good income, and security, things are brighter. The well-to-do usually do well under any circumtance. The insurgency hasn't declined. I posted just a few days ago a link to a report showing that death and injury has been the same since Zarqawi died. How many deaths of Iraqi civilians is the overthrow of Saddam worth? Saddam did not indiscriminately blow up children and women. How many of them are you willing to sacrifice in order to defend the actions of your president?

    I would say it's rather sick of you to describe Al Qaeda and the insurgency as a fly in the ointment -- do you really have so little regard for life that you regard the terrorism in Iraq as a minor inconvenience?

    On a related note, like the ABC poll which reported the good news in the first paragraphs, this report also shows a bias:

    "The survey indicated that business has grown throughout most of Iraq since the end of Saddam Hussein's regime in 2003. More than four in 10 of those surveyed said they have added employees since that time and about three in 10 said the number of their employees has not changed, for a total of 71 percent saying their employee figures have grown or remained stable." Notice that they didn't mention the other 3 in 10, who I presume said the number of employees had declined.

    While we have to hope that Iraq recovers from the chaos and destruction wrought by the idiot Bush, I think it's best chance for recovery will be when we find a way to leave and hand the security over to people who are not as hated by the Iraqis and insurgents.
     
  13. ctpatsfan1

    ctpatsfan1 On the Game Day Roster

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    heh, nice spin. The chaos and destruction was not wrought by Bush it was wrought by a small minority of the population who doesn't want to give up its power and will kill anyone to keep it. Not to mention Al-Queda which also will kill anyone and everyone to fulfill its goal. Now you can argue that the Admin's mistakes of too few troops and disbanding the army helped cause this, however in the end the responsibility for the death and destruction ultimately lies with those that are doing it not those trying to stop it. Your view of the siutation is far too short sighted, as is most liberals. A democratic, peaceful Iraq long term will be the best counter to Islamic radicalism just like free and democratic societies are the best counter to marxist/communist ones.
     
  14. Blue Collar

    Blue Collar 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    Was hamas elected in palestine?
     
  15. ctpatsfan1

    ctpatsfan1 On the Game Day Roster

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    I would say it's rather sick of you to describe Al Qaeda and the insurgency as a fly in the ointment -- do you really have so little regard for life that you regard the terrorism in Iraq as a minor inconvenience?

    heh, wow do you read into stuff like no other poster that I have seen. Quite the contrary I regard life very highly and understand that 300,000 dead Iraqi's under Saddam Hussein needed to be corrected. You apparently think US life is more valuable than Iraqi life as you were willing to let the murders and rape rooms continue unabated. It is not different than Bosnia or Darfur for that matter. While the libs pols from all around the world sit and debate what to do, people are being systematically raped and killed because everyone is afraid of taking action because some of their own might get hurt. And why is that? Because at the first report of a dead US soldier the liberal left through the media and their pols jumps up and starts crying "Vietnam, its a quaqmire" ...........at some point in time you need to stand up and take action and do what is right not just what feels good. And sometimes doing the right thing is the hardest thing you will ever do in your life.

    So tell me do you value US lives more than Iraqi lives? Because that is what you are suggesting in your response.
     
  16. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey

    My main gripe with Bush is a singular issue here. Had he LET THE MILITARY PLAN AND RUN THE WAR....using our brilliant generals who have trained a lifetime for this. Had he done that...we would have marched into Baghdad....quickly gathered the military and police...let them stay in force...then make all the deals necessary....we could have left in less than 1 months time and had Saddam in jail to boot.

    But Bush used Rumsfeld instead...because he saw Iraq as an opportunity to attract terrorists into Iraq to defeat them for all the world to see...it failed...the Iraqi people were used.

    These people live their life through religion...and their religion says that infidels (even those with good intentions) are not allowed and shall be killed.

    Any 1/2 intelligent person would have planned that war to get in and get out. Personally, i am not convinced we did all we could to have him killed. Money talks and Bullsh it walks...someone could have killed the basta rd...that I am sure.
     
  17. ctpatsfan1

    ctpatsfan1 On the Game Day Roster

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    So was the Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas your point is what?
     
  18. ctpatsfan1

    ctpatsfan1 On the Game Day Roster

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    Bingo......that no one can argue with right or left. Rumsfeld botched this something aweful and should have been strung up. This is what happens when pols get involved and go against the military planners and Generals.
     
  19. Blue Collar

    Blue Collar 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    Was he elected through democracy in palestine?
     
  20. Blue Collar

    Blue Collar 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    That was my point I was trying to make, democracy doesn't allways work the way you want it in the middle east. If and when we leave iraq, we will see the interval process and witness the outcome be it good or bad.
     

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