The core problem is EXECUTION, not the OC per se

[Brownfan80]

Good points,,,but that is why in my opinion, you don't put a rook into this situation...to say that this team needs a seasoned OC next season is an understatement. McDaniels may be a good OC one day....but he has a long way to go....and as you point out ...had no business being in there this year........

I think with BB's help that JM has done a good job in the face of this 'trial by fire'.. 9-4 is a good record. Like BB said, don't judge the Pats by their mistakes (JM included), judge them by their body of work. 9-4 is a pretty good body of work especially considering the circumstances.

I think that the success we've had under durress speaks highly of McDaniels. Once he's got a better situation to work with, imagine how successful he could be at that point.

And with the experience gained by working with these limitations? He'll be better prepared for any hardships in the future. It's a rough 'education', but he's handled it well and that speaks highly of his future. IMO.

 

[cstjohn17]

getting your offense execute at a high level is also a responsibility of the preperation by the coaching staff in practice..they just dont call plays ...as we have read before..charlie used to berate his players when they didnt practice properly.

I see plenty of blame to go around... the buck stops at the head coach especially because he is the one picking the groceries.

I agree completely, play calling (Xs and Os) are not even half of a coaches responsibility. Players must be mentally prepared for the game \ schemes they will encounter, also an identity or attitude must be developed. Currently this team is poorly coached on offense (OC and Head Coach), they are unprepared out of position and make way too many mental mistakes. Weis was a bully and a tyrant, but it worked. No one wanted to walk back to the sideline after dropping a pass or running the wrong route. He would tear you a new a-hole... I doubt players are currently at the same level of heightened awareness.

The fact they have practiced trick plays for 3-4 weeks is very frustrating. More effort should be put into lining up and executing, making protection adjustments and carrying out assignments.

The players cannot be excused either, at some point it comes down to being a man and taking care of your responsibility.

At last but not least the FO has to share some of the blame, these WRs are embarrassing. Definitely one of the worst groups in the league, absolutely no respect for the deep passing game.

Very frustrating but not completely unforeseen, we are what we are. We should be in the tournament and anything could happen but there is little of the offensive side to show signs of encouragement. Three games to sort things out and then it starts for real.

 

[JoeSixPat]

I've seen enough questionable playcalling earlier in the year to give me some concern about McDaniels

But if we're making judgments based on yesterday's game alone, given the poor execution its difficult if not impossible to draw conclusions about the OC.

 

[FirstAndGoal]

I don't understand why Matt Light wasn't getting help blocking Jason Taylor.

It also seems like they don't run the ball enough.

I thought that Brady explained this well yesterday. The problem is that Miami is set up to take advantage of their strengths like everyone else. If you try and double up on the line to take care of people like Taylor by keeping a tight end in for blocking, Miami's DBs double on your receivers. If you try countering that with short passes to the tight ends underneath (who are the guys you would use to counter that) then we don't have a line that can handle their pass rush (i.e. Taylor) and all their Lbs have to do is to play tight on the tight end until Taylor and crew wreck the pocket. It's a situation where you pick your poison and we don't match up well against their defense because of this. It makes perfect sense to me no matter how hard it is to swallow. If anything, it's a great use of their personnel and one of the reasons why Miami can beat the best teams when they get their sh!t together.

I'm not sure what the run game issues are with Miami but I'm sure it's something similar.

 

[DarrylS]

This is getting tiring, two camps the blame the OC camp and those who view it as problems in execution, penalties, turnovers and untimely injuries. I am in the latter camp and no matter how you frame it, blaming the OC is shortsighted and not the problem with the Patriots. He is part of it, but only a small part of it.. he does not fumble, does not get false starts, does not injure players and does not execute plays.

 

[cstjohn17]

This is getting tiring, two camps the blame the OC camp and those who view it as problems in execution, penalties, turnovers and untimely injuries. I am in the latter camp and no matter how you frame it, blaming the OC is shortsighted and not the problem with the Patriots. He is part of it, but only a small part of it.. he does not fumble, does not get false starts, does not injure players and does not execute plays.

Execution has held them back, no doubt about it. But fumbles aside, isn't the coaches job to ensure the players understand their assignments?

Whenever an opponent takes a lot of penalties we say that they are undisciplined and poorly coached, why doesn't they same hold true here?

It seems to me that the break downs in pass protection are first and foremost a lack of execution my the players. Even when they have 6 guys in to block they are getting beat by 4 rushers. Another part of the problem is that they are unprepared for the looks the defense is giving them. In both the New York and Miami game the offense was visibly confused, the preparation falls to the coaching staff. We will never find out if the X and Os will work until we can execute basic assignments.

 

[BelichickFan]

So why hasn't NEM stopped by to say the problem is the Execition of the OC - or the lack thereof ?

 

[AzPatsFan]

BB can make ball security a priority all he wants. The fact is, if McDaniels consistently calls bad plays against the defense, every single play will be harder to execute, and you will end up with a ton of excuses such as 'we just need to make plays', or 'we don't have enough talent'.

Bosh and drivel!

McDaniels was the Offensive Coordinator last year, and Brady and the passing game led the League in passing. He didn't forget how to call a passing game. The fact remains that the Offense and the offensive skill positions are full of youngsters &/or newcomers and youngsters/newcomers make mistakes. Period.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Bosh and drivel!

McDaniels was the Offensive Coordinator last year, and Brady and the passing game led the League in passing. He didn't forget how to call a passing game. The fact remains that the Offense and the offensive skill positions are full of youngsters &/or newcomers and youngsters/newcomers make mistakes. Period.

Bingo!
Ask yourself what is different about THIS year's passing game vs 2005s?
Here's a hint: It's not Josh McD

That is not to say that his playcalling should not be analyzed and criticized as long as we remember...
1. Who is in the Pats lineup
2. The other team's tools and matchups
3. Our analysis is hindsight

I loved Weis but somtimes his specific play calls in certain situations drove me to frustration. That's normal.

Post playoffs, should BB decide that J McD's leadership is too inconsistent, then I'm certain he'll hire another OC. The only place where BB does not demand excellence is punting.

 

[Seneschal2]

The fact they have practiced trick plays for 3-4 weeks is very frustrating. More effort should be put into lining up and executing, making protection adjustments and carrying out assignments.

Let me guess: You heard a post game interview and found out out they practiced some trick plays. This tidbit of info now leads you to believe they neglected/failed to give enough effort toward the basics leading up to the game? Exactly how how did you arrive at this conclusion? An ugly loss?

The players cannot be excused either, at some point it comes down to being a man and taking care of your responsibility.

At some point? How about from the first snap until the clock expires...

It's a situation where you pick your poison and we don't match up well against their defense because of this. It makes perfect sense to me no matter how hard it is to swallow.

He gets it.

This is getting tiring, two camps the blame the OC camp and those who view it as problems in execution, penalties, turnovers and untimely injuries. I am in the latter camp and no matter how you frame it, blaming the OC is shortsighted and not the problem with the Patriots. He is part of it, but only a small part of it.. he does not fumble, does not get false starts, does not injure players and does not execute plays.

He gets it too.

McDaniels was the Offensive Coordinator last year, and Brady and the passing game led the League in passing. He didn't forget how to call a passing game. The fact remains that the Offense and the offensive skill positions are full of youngsters &/or newcomers and youngsters/newcomers make mistakes. Period.

Add to the mix, poor execution by some of the veterans also.

Here's the deal:

Being in sync on offense is crucial to moving the chains consistently. Newcomers, poor execution, injuries, are contributing factors of an out-of -sync offense. Execute one play at a time properly, and the OC will get into a [SIZE=-1]rhythm with his playcalling. Shoot yourselves in the foot during each possession, and the jobs of OC and QB become that much more difficult.[/SIZE]

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Being in sync on offense is crucial to moving the chains consistently. Newcomers, poor execution, injuries, are contributing factors of an out-of -sync offense. Execute one play at a time properly, and the OC will get into a [SIZE=-1]rhythm with his playcalling. Shoot yourselves in the foot during each possession, and the jobs of OC and QB become that much more difficult.[/SIZE][/I]

Now this is poetry in dialogue! Excellent visualization of the issues in Miami. Well done!

 

[spacecrime]

You are not in the minority. It's just that the ones who think so are so loud and insistent.

I may be in the minority, but I look at the situation that McDaniels has inherited. He's a rookie OC whose first job was to take an offense with an aging RB, a Rookie RB, two injury prone first round TEs, a patchwork OL, and a WR Corps whose only returning member was Troy Brown (80% turnover). Keep in mind that Brown and Caldwell were the only two WRs on the opening day roster that had a full TC with Tom Brady.

McDaniels had one hell of a task ahead of him this season. The chips were instantly stacked against him from the outset of training camp.

A few games this season have not gone well and we're used to seeing those games work out a bit differently in the past. But Weis is not the only thing that changed from those years of 'what we're used to'.. The players changed also.

Troy Brown is not the same player he was when Weis counted on him so heavily in 2001. Givens and Branch are both gone from Weis's 2003 and 2004 runs, David Patten as well. Good ole 2-8 is not the same RB he was in 2004 when he more or less pulled the sled the Patriots rode on for the entire year.

McDaniels only has Brady to count on consistently. The rest of these players are players that have never been counted on as that Key Contributor. At WR there aren't any vets that have been in the system for Tom to rely on. Troy is too old to fill that role. At TE we've spent alot of high picks but have very few reps or production to show for it because of injury problems to Graham and Watson through the years. At RB Corey is older and slower, Maroney is young and unpolished. We've started three different RTs. Light and Neal have both been dinged up at points...

For a rookie OC in that position, I think 9-4 is pretty good. We're not playing well consistently, but 9-4 is pretty good.

9-4 shocks me, to be honest.

 

[maverick4]

You are not in the minority. It's just that the ones who think so are so loud and insistent.

Brownfan, why do you keep making excuses for McDaniel?

Before McDaniel took over, the Pats had championship seasons with far less offensive talent, and just as many new players.

 

[BelichickFan]

Brownfan, why do you keep making excuses for McDaniel?

Before McDaniel took over, the Pats had championship seasons with far less offensive talent, and just as many new players.

That's just not true. Last year he didn't have a healthy RB, this year he has no WR.

I'm going to blindly compare 2005 to 2003. Last year's running game, with Dillon mostly hurt, had about the talent of the 2003 Smith.

2003 : 315 Yards/Gm, 21.8 Points/Gm
2005 : 352 Yards/Gm, 23.7 Points/Gm

Those are the most comparable "talent" seasons IMO.

The outliers are 2004 (with a healthy Dillon) and 2006 (with the WR gone) :

2004 : 357.6 Yards/Gm, 27.3 Points/Gm
2006 : 335.8 Yards/Gm, 21.6 Points/Gm

This year, 2006, compares most similarly to 2003. We have better RB (Dillon and Maroney over Smith) plus Watson but no Givens and no Branch. The only actual outlier in all the stats listed is PPG in 2004 when everything was ticking, we had Givens, Branch, a healthy Dillon . . . but I bet we scored a few defensive TDs that year too, unlike this year.

Bottom line to me, you anti McDaniels people are being patently unfair.

 

[BelichickFan]

For fun I'm going to look at Football Outsiders' Offense rankings for the years. Again, I'm doing this blind I have no idea how it'll be . . .

2001 (Brady, Smith, Brown, Patten, TE in Minn now, Weis) : 14th offense
2002 (Brady, Smith, Givens&Branch as rookies, Graham, Weis) :10th offense
2003 (Brady, Smith, Givens, Branch, Graham, Weis) :14th offense
2004 (Brady, Dillon, Givens, Branch, Graham, Weis) : 4th offense
2005 (Brady, hurt Dillon, Givens, Branch, Graham, Watson, McDaniels) : 7th offense
2005 (Brady, Dillon, Maroney, slop WR, Graham, Watson, McDaniels) : 8th offense

I don't know, guys. The only year that Weis did better statistically was when the players were all at the top of their games.

 

[Brownfan80]

Brownfan, why do you keep making excuses for McDaniel?

Before McDaniel took over, the Pats had championship seasons with far less offensive talent, and just as many new players.

Far less offensive talent in the championship seasons?

How do you figure?

Branch and Givens (experienced proven players in OUR system) are now gone.

Patten is now gone, who was a very experienced option at WR that was proven to be productive in our system.

They've been replaced by a now released Gabriel and a surprisingly decent Reche Caldwell. Jackson has raw talent, but has no experience and missed all of TC and has been injured. Gaffney is a street FA that cannot even be considered in the same class as Branch or Givens in this system, and he has the least experience in our system of any of the WRs on the roster.

Troy Brown is obviously not the same player he was even in 2003 or 2004, much less 2001. He's older and has lost a step, he's no longer a #1 or even #2 WR. He's a decent #3.

Dillon is obviously not the same back he was in 2004 after his injury plagued 2005 season. He's older, slower, and his quickness and explosion are all but gone. He plows forward, gets hit, drags guys and falls down. 2004 Dillon did not do that. Go back and watch those tapes.

Maroney is very talented, but is a rookie and unpolished. Our OL has lost several members from 2004 (Ashworth, Andruzzi most notably) that were replaced with PS players and rookies this season.

I cannot fathom how this squad, overall, has greater talent than the 2003 or 2004 offenses. Many of the players are the same, but not the same as they were back then. Many of the players that were lost have been replaced by guys that might run a simular 40 time or have simular body types, but do not possess the same experience level or understanding of our offense that Givens and Branch had after many seasons in the offense with Brady.

We're undergoing 80% turnover at the WR position. It is impossible to say that what Tom Brady and McDaniels are working with this season is comparable to what Weis had to work with in either 2003 or 2004. Simply impossible.

I'd really like to hear a reply as to how you figure that the Championship offenses had less talent to work with.

2001- Smith did a good job carrying the load at RB, and Troy Brown was in the midst of his pinnacle and CARRIED this offense. Patten played well as a #2 option at WR.

2003 - Deion Branch, David Givens and Troy Brown created a three WR team at WR that was producing well and had by then developed a very solid chemistry with Tom Brady.

Antowain was not a #1 RB anymore, but Kevin Faulk split time and produced well, having his best season as a pro. The two combined for a 1300 yard season.

Faulk also contributed heavily in our passing game, as the fourth leading reciever behind the top 3 WRs, Daniel Graham contributed in both the running game and recieving.

2004 - The year of 2-8. The last great Corey Dillon season. He carried the offense with his 1600 yards rushing. David Givens enjoyed a great season and even with injuries at WR Patten and Branch both still had solid seasons. Troy Brown wasn't playing WR as much during this season due to his splitting time at CB. Daniel Graham contributed with 7 TD catches.

So after looking back at all the players that were involved with the offenses of the SB seasons you're ready to say that:

2001 Troy Brown and 2001 David Patten/2001 Antoine Smith

and

2003 Troy Brown/David Givens/Deion Branch/Antoine Smith/Kevin Faulk

and

2004 Givens/Patten/Branch/COREY DILLON

are less than this 2006 mess?

I'd gladly trade our set of WRs for any listed above, if they were going to play as they did in each respective season.

I'd gladly trade 2006 Corey -and- Maroney for a 2004 Corey (in a one season vaccuum, not longterm, obviously).

The one place we're probably 'better' at is TE with Watson having a full season under his belt and Graham still around, but both guys have had injury problems.

If you see it differently, please enlighten me. Because I fail to see how this 2006 squad has more talent than the SB teams. I fail to see how that supposed talent is supposed to replace the invaluable experience that the players in place during the SB runs possessed. I'm just at a loss to how people don't appreciate A) what we had back then, and B) how empty the cupboard is right now.

 

[BelichickFan]

Ha ha, we produce some number and all the haters go away. McDaniels' numbers stack up solidly with Weis'. And remember those PPG numbers include defensive/ST scores - and this year we haven't scored on D/ST since the Safety against Buffalo - and last year we barely created any turnovers so the Weis numbers in points are juiced a little.

 

[maverick4]

Ha ha, we produce some number and all the haters go away. McDaniels' numbers stack up solidly with Weis'. And remember those PPG numbers include defensive/ST scores - and this year we haven't scored on D/ST since the Safety against Buffalo - and last year we barely created any turnovers so the Weis numbers in points are juiced a little.

As I've said before, those total offense numbers don't mean anything to me. Before McDaniels took over, the Pats offense was always one of top teams in the efficiency categories (least dropped balls, least turnovers, higher scoring ranking than yards ranking, etc). The past two years, the new Patriots offense racks up easy yards but is less efficient in the red zone, produces far more dropped/tipped balls, as well as more fumbles. Also, I have never seen Brady whacked as violently as he has been the past two yeras. And yes, I do think there is a correlation between play-calling and those types of execution errors. Also, the new offense places far more responsibility on Brady to bail the offense out.

Can you honestly say you still think we go into every game with a scheme advantage on offense? I would say McDaniels is average at best, and certainly not a great coordinator. McDaniels is more of a simple line-them-up and see what happens type of coordinator, which relies much more on talent than superior scheme.

You can argue personnel all you want, but the fact is Charlie Weiss had Antowain Smith, Troy Brown, David Patten, and a cast-off offensive line for much of his Pats career, and those guys were marginal players at best when he got them. Weiss MADE those guys valuable and made them better. Weiss coached a team that was fixing its cap hell and was just bringing in new talent. McDaniels is stocked with world class talent but not helping players improve, as well as putting players in tough situations to succeed,and only producing marginally better total yardage results.

 

[BelichickFan]

As I've said before, those total offense numbers don't mean anything to me. Before McDaniels took over, the Pats offense was always one of top teams in the efficiency categories (least dropped balls, least turnovers, higher scoring ranking than yards ranking, etc). The past two years, the new Patriots offense racks up easy yards but is less efficient in the red zone, produces far more dropped/tipped balls, as well as more fumbles. Also, I have never seen Brady whacked as violently as he has been the past two yeras. And yes, I do think there is a correlation between play-calling and those types of execution errors. Also, the new offense places far more responsibility on Brady to bail the offense out.

Can you honestly say you still think we go into every game with a scheme advantage on offense? I would say McDaniels is average at best, and certainly not a great coordinator. McDaniels is more of a simple line-them-up and see what happens type of coordinator, which relies much more on talent than superior scheme.

You can argue personnel all you want, but the fact is Charlie Weiss had Antowain Smith, Troy Brown, David Patten, and a cast-off offensive line for much of his Pats career, and those guys were marginal players at best when he got them. Weiss MADE those guys valuable and made them better. McDaniels is taking world class talent and not helping talent grow, as well as put players in tough situations to succeed.

And McDaniels has tweedle dee and tweedle dum at WR. Look at the FO rankings of the 2001 offense - 14th.

I actually think our scoring is very good. With no WR to speak of and only 2 D/ST points all year, we're still averaging about the same as 2003. Sure 2004 was off the charts but that was when we had everything, the RB, the WR, the defensive scoring.

The fact that McDaniels' scoring is keeping up with Weis' scoring in 2003 when we had Smith but also Givens and Branch is impressive however you want to spin it.

 

[Brownfan80]

Tom Brady weighs in on Execution vs McDaniels, sounds like he thinks the players aren't doing what they're supposed to do:

That’s what we’ve been trying to do since Day 1 of training camp. I think this team has to listen more to what the Coach says. I think if we listen more and we did more of what our coaches told us to do, I think we’d be a lot better off. But at times, I think we figure we can do it our way, and we show there is quite a bit of inconsistency to that. We just have to keep trying to find a way.

So now can we say that the internal reality of this team is more that execution is failing than McDaniels is failing?

Not that McD is perfect, or blameless, but the execution is obviously something that not only we fans have noticed, but that the locker room has noticed, and Tom Brady is asking the players to do what they're asked more so that they can win more games.