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The core problem is EXECUTION, not the OC per se

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by PatsWickedPissah, Dec 11, 2006.

  1. PatsWickedPissah

    PatsWickedPissah PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I'll explain why execution may be indicative of other underlying core problems but first...

    1. Had Graham executed by holding onto the ball, an early drive would have continued.
    2. Had Gaffney correctly judged the deep ball (similar to 1st year bust Chad Jackson's play) a TD would hav occured. Or at least a gain to the red zone.
    3. Had Kevin "what The" Faulk not lost situational awareness and thrown the pass backwards instead of forward, another TD would have occured.

    Other lack of execution examples are less straightforward but I believe that our wideouts are not geting free ffom man coverage. Note how close the Miami corners lined up vs our guys 9 yards back, giving the short pass. Brady had no such luxury.

    I think that many of the EXECUTION problems are a consequence of lack of talent. Lack of talent at WR to catch the long ball, or to get separation, or to read the blitz and cut the route short in the appropriate time and place. The inability to handle the blitz and fast DEs is another lack of talent issue where the problem gets compounded by forcing a TE to become a OT.

    Other execution issues are indicative of poor mental discipline. The numerous offsides and the stupid penalties such as Seymour's roughing calls. Faulk's forward pass was lack of mental discipline as well. Why a formerly disciplined team is now suddenly undisciplined is another deeper question.
  2. thomas144

    thomas144 Rookie

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    I don't understand why Matt Light wasn't getting help blocking Jason Taylor.

    It also seems like they don't run the ball enough.
  3. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    I think a symptom of bad coaching and play-calling is an increasing use of the 'poor execution' excuse. If players are not put in positions to succeed, or are too often put in awkward or poorly designed plays, then they will make more mistakes that seem like execution-type errors.

    I think McDaniels is too inexperienced as well as unable to cope with non-vanilla defenses, and I also question his 'whiz kid' reputation as an intelligent rising star.
  4. SVN

    SVN Rookie

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    getting your offense execute at a high level is also a responsibility of the preperation by the coaching staff in practice..they just dont call plays ...as we have read before..charlie used to berate his players when they didnt practice properly.
  5. PatsWickedPissah

    PatsWickedPissah PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It's a talent and a mental desire issue. If you want to 'blame' the coaches for the mental unpreparedness, there's posssibly some merit there.

    Coaching is NOT responsible for inability to get open, inability to hold onto the ball, inability to make a NFL calibre reception, inability to focus enough to avoid throwing across the LOS and inability to maintain composure and avoid stomping an opposing player or gratuituosly roughing the passer.

    Coaching called the deep pattern that would have been a TD were the wideout capable of reacting to the ball in flight.

    Coaching called the flea flicker style TD play that would have been a TD if Faulk had maintained situational awareness. Two TDs, lost because of lack of execution. Couple that with Watson's drop of the long ball before being hit.

    Using additional players to help Light and Kacsur removes thos players from offensive threats allowing tighter coverage of less receivers. Dedicating help to an OT removes a blocker for the surprise opposite side or delayed up the middle blitz. There's a finite limit to schemes compensating for lack of superior talent.

    This 2006 team lacks the talent of the 2003 and 2004 teams and I'm not just referring to one missing wideout.
  6. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Rookie

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    isn't execution true of any offense? shouldn't the run and shoot work in theory if it's executed?

    i think it is the playcalling and sequence of playcalling. in a matter of 3 plays i've seen them go from the spread formation to the power i formation to trips formation. with all the changing in personnel it's no wodner no chemistry is formed.

    IMO the OC is suppose to find a defenses weakness and expolit it. supposedly watson was suppose to create mismatches but he's disappeared the past few weeks.

    I will admit they do have personnel issues, the offense has been a mess all season long, establishing no continuity or conistency.
  7. Brownfan80

    Brownfan80 Rookie

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    Say what you want of Brady's INTs, but players do not FUMBLE because of a playcall. No matter the playcall once the ball is in your arms the concept is the same. These players (not Brady, the non QB fumbles like Graham's) are fumbling our chances away at an alarming rate.

    People blame the playcalls over and over, but fundemental football is what is lacking. If you can't hold onto the damn ball how does it even matter what the playcall is? If our WRs can't catch the ball or get open, how can we judge the routes they're asked to run? If our OL can't pass block or run block, how can we judge the playcalls they've been asked to execute?

    The OL issues started last season. Some of us thought that it'd get better with the healthy return of Light and Koppen, but this hasn't happened. It's actually gotten worse as this season has gone along. The OL play is horrid.

    The tackles in particular are just getting thrown around like utterly worthless ragdolls far too often.

    Does it matter if you run a slant or incut or out-route or hitch-n-go if the OTs are letting pressure get to Brady in 1.5 seconds? No!

    The playcalling is being restricted by the horrible execution.

    Our WRs are playing horrible, our RBs are average without Maroney in there, our OL is playing horribly in both phases of the offense. And just about every skill position player has fumbled in the past four or five weeks. Go back and recount the fumbles in your head. The only player that I can remember not fumbling this season is Troy Brown. Maroney, Dillon, Caldwell, Watson, Graham, Faulk, Gabriel... they've all had ball security problems!

    This offense isn't suffereng from slight chips of bad execution, they're suffering from an epedemic of bad execution. They can't even hold the ball once it's in their hands! We're supposed to believe that in spite of that they can run every route the way their supposed to on time and in position? Please!

    Brady is surrounded right now with a ton of players that aren't doing what they're supposed to do when they are supposed to do it. He's getting demolished out there by piss-poor protection and the lack of a good running game. Dillon averaged a good bit of yards, but had to come out so often that we still ended up having to punt when we faced short third downs without him in there.

    If this team does nothing in the playoffs it will be because the offensive players couldn't come together and play sound fundamental football. Pee-wee stuff. Catch the ball, don't fumble it when you're tackled. Block the man in front of you. It's really that simple. If they can't do the basics, why are we slamming the OC because they're not doing the more elaborate things?

    We need more talent.
  8. Oswlek

    Oswlek Rookie

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    I usually refrain from the OC threads, but I'll bite in this one. I have been quick to point out who was inactive or who was new or whatever in an effort to deflect criticism from McDaniels. The longer the season wears on, though, it becomes clearer just how uncoordinated the offense is. There is a distinct lack of rhythym even during their best of games.

    Now, that does not mean that I think that McDaniels is "in over his head" or that he should be fired. He's just not as good as Weis. No shame in that, a lot of good coordinators in this league are not as good as Weis is. The problem arises when NE has personnel issues that require good coordination to overcome. McDaniels just isn't there yet. He may never be.

    If Josh is here next year, I will give him my full support until he has proven that improvement is just not there. I feel comforable with BB making the right decision about McDaniels' future with NE. Unless, of course, McDaniels is Ken Walter's illegitimate brother or something,
  9. thomas144

    thomas144 Rookie

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    "Situational Awareness?" He made a bad pass.

    Yes, the talent is not that great. The stock-piling of offensive linemen hasn't quite worked out the way we thought it would. Come to think of it, the stock-piling of Tight Ends hasn't worked out either.

    I think they made a tactical decision to let Matt Light try to block Jason Taylor and it didn't work. I think they should have done something about that.

    I also think Brady's receivers aren't very good.
  10. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Rookie

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    That's assuming it was a double pass. It could've been intended as a pass and reception by brady much like patten did once and brady saw there was nothing so he tried to pass it.
  11. Oswlek

    Oswlek Rookie

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    I agree with all of this, but I have come to the dark side somewhat. I don't have all the charts and bells and whistles, but I do feel anecdotally that NE has more talent than they are showing. And some of that has to fall on the coaches.

    In 2002 I thought coaching was a major problem, but it ended up being that talent was the issue. That team was different in that they only had one year of success to hang their hats on. The 2006 version has too many guys who have proven themselves multiple times in the past for things to come apart this quickly. And it isn't guys going over the hill because some of the biggest offenders are younger guys.

    As I said above, I'm starting a lynch mob or anything, but I no longer feel like NE is going into every week with a major coaching advantage.
  12. Brownfan80

    Brownfan80 Rookie

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    I may be in the minority, but I look at the situation that McDaniels has inherited. He's a rookie OC whose first job was to take an offense with an aging RB, a Rookie RB, two injury prone first round TEs, a patchwork OL, and a WR Corps whose only returning member was Troy Brown (80% turnover). Keep in mind that Brown and Caldwell were the only two WRs on the opening day roster that had a full TC with Tom Brady.

    McDaniels had one hell of a task ahead of him this season. The chips were instantly stacked against him from the outset of training camp.

    A few games this season have not gone well and we're used to seeing those games work out a bit differently in the past. But Weis is not the only thing that changed from those years of 'what we're used to'.. The players changed also.

    Troy Brown is not the same player he was when Weis counted on him so heavily in 2001. Givens and Branch are both gone from Weis's 2003 and 2004 runs, David Patten as well. Good ole 2-8 is not the same RB he was in 2004 when he more or less pulled the sled the Patriots rode on for the entire year.

    McDaniels only has Brady to count on consistently. The rest of these players are players that have never been counted on as that Key Contributor. At WR there aren't any vets that have been in the system for Tom to rely on. Troy is too old to fill that role. At TE we've spent alot of high picks but have very few reps or production to show for it because of injury problems to Graham and Watson through the years. At RB Corey is older and slower, Maroney is young and unpolished. We've started three different RTs. Light and Neal have both been dinged up at points...

    For a rookie OC in that position, I think 9-4 is pretty good. We're not playing well consistently, but 9-4 is pretty good.

    9-4 shocks me, to be honest.
  13. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    Execution excuses and 'we need more talent' explanations are many times simply the result of bad coaching.

    Are you a basketball fan? Any astute fan can tell that Doc Rivers is a horrible coach. Apologists blame it on lack of talent, or lack of offensive and defensive execution, but you can clearly see it whenever the Celtics get defensive violations or horrible iso plays or lack of direction in the 4th quarter of close games. People said the same thing about the Lakers with Kobe and Shaq, but then Phil Jackson arrived and soon-after won the championship with the exact same team.

    The same case applies here with McDaniels. The Patriots have way more blown blocking assignments, Brady has been beat up the past two years, we have more penalties, more missed catches (even last year with Branch and Givens), more weird plays like tipped balls or fumbles, and I believe all of these are SYMPTOMS of bad offensive coaching and play calling. Even with Branch on our team last year the offense was still funky and disjointed.

    I think Belichick gives a lot of freedom to his coordinators, and it is clear McDaniels is not a gamer. We are STACKED with talent on offense, but it is a waste because our coordinator blows.
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2006
  14. Brownfan80

    Brownfan80 Rookie

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    True, but I do think personell has alot to do with it. We don't talk alot about Dean Pees, our 'other' rookie coordinator. Why? Well, it's not like our defense has been perfect all year long. They've had their lapses too. But out of each position on the defense, Pees has the luxury of having proven veterans.

    Even through all the injuries at S, he's had Hawkins, who was with the club last season and did a good job. At CB he's got four year alum Samuel as his 'vet'. When Harrison gets back that's another smart vet that knows what's going on.

    At LB there's Vrabel and Bruschi and Colvin. The DL is too obvious to even point out.

    On the offense there's Tom Brady, Troy Brown, and an aging Dillon, and then Koppen and Light on the OL.

    The difference is pretty striking, IMO.

    Honestly I think that most of those proven guys are on the defense. The offense is what has fallen apart, and there aren't alot of proven guys there. Dillon is aging fast. Graham is one of the more veteran players in this system, and even he was never a valued contributor to much more than the running game. Troy was valued in the past, but can't be relied on for that much involvement or production now. Beyond that there's Watson who is basically in his second season and injured again. There's a slew of brand new WRs that aren't those 'key guys'... I just don't see those 'rely on them' players on this offense yet.

    I think it's a bad situation all around on the offense. The players are letting the coaches down, and it appears that the coaches aren't doing all that they can do either in preparation or execution on gameday.. The offense is just... epileptic.
  15. Brownfan80

    Brownfan80 Rookie

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    Explain to me how the OC is responsible for fumbles. I could see it except that the sloppy play like that by the players is the main factor. That's the one factor that is the most different about our offense this season. Brady has thrown slightly more INTs this season than in seasons past, but not by much. It's the turnovers by skill players with the ball already in their hands that we're seeing this season that we haven't seen before. And I can't fathom how that's because of a playcall.

    And I can't fathom that it's because of bad coaching either, because it's been widely reported that BB himself made ball security a priority the past few weeks. Say what you want of McD, but if BB's involved and the players still aren't coming through?
  16. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    BB can make ball security a priority all he wants. The fact is, if McDaniels consistently calls bad plays against the defense, every single play will be harder to execute, and you will end up with a ton of excuses such as 'we just need to make plays', or 'we don't have enough talent'.
  17. PatsWickedPissah

    PatsWickedPissah PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I think the inability of ANY of our WRs to beat man coverage with any consistency allows a good D like Miami's to bring extra passrush pressure that makes the OL look somewhat worse than it is. I concede Light's demonstrably obvious talent problems vs speed rushers. The RT had the same problems when matched up against Taylor.
  18. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    "...blown blocking assignments..." So do you choose to credit that to McDaniels, or should the more experienced O-line coach and Assistant Head Coach be the first person responsible for this issue? McDaniels is learning to be an Offensive Coordinator, he has experienced position coaches and his Head Coach is pretty good about bringing on young coaches. It is fair to question his playcalling, but to go beyond a weekly rant about it, some of us find it helpful for the discussion to provide details - an argument you can get in a bar, this has been a unique place to discuss football from the x's and o's perspective. It may well be a matter of the talent on hand, I think an equally valid issue is the time the coaches have had to implant the training in the mind of the recently acquired players (post-preseason acquisitions). The O-line puzzles the heck out of me, I'll see what I can see when I can get into the tape.
  19. stcjones

    stcjones Rookie

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    good post !
  20. stcjones

    stcjones Rookie

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    Good points,,,but that is why in my opinion, you don't put a rook into this situation...to say that this team needs a seasoned OC next season is an understatement. McDaniels may be a good OC one day....but he has a long way to go....and as you point out ...had no business being in there this year........

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