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The Collapse of the Modern Welfare State

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by patsfan13, Mar 1, 2010.

  1. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I want to pull together couple of threads themes we have seen here in the past few months. The most recent is the Thread by RW about the Pensions of government which are causing state and local governments to go broke. Another theme is the looming unfunded liabilities for our entitlement program, with the companion theme of adding another entitlement for health care.


    The stateist model is unsustainable, we have recently seen the financial crisis, which is being leveraged to increase the power of the state, even though state intervention was a big contributing factor to the problem. We also see the state seeking to control energy availability by means of the fabricated man made climate change scare.

    Now we see the collapse of Greece and the impending problems in Spain, Ireland, Portugal and Italy.

    from M Steyn:

    STEYN: Our own Greek tragedy - Washington Times


    Of course the government employees are rioting over their plight, the country can collapse as long as they are not bothered.

    Lonsberry


    Aside from the collapse of socialist states after they run out of other peoples money we have the issue of demographics which are going into the tank worldwide especially in the big industrial states. We have aborted ourselves towards economic collapse, due to a lack of people going into the future:

    YouTube - Low Birth Rates, Worldwide Demographic Winter and the Declin


    Demographics are destiny.
  2. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    Big difference between Greece and the US:

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    We better not cut defense corporation welfare or welfare for KofSA, Israel, and Iraq. We'll be needing the fuel to run the Toys of the Empire.
  3. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Washington Times article, a blog by someone named Bob Lonsberry and a You Tube Video.. that is all the information that is needed to make a really intelligent discussion.. :confused::confused::confused:
  4. reflexblue

    reflexblue PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #91 Jersey

    Is it me or are there several people here that seem to want America to fail?
  5. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    When I lived in Sweden in the early 1990s, the conservatives made the same cry. There were many articles that insisted socialist Sweden would collapse, but in many ways Sweden became a role model for how to manage an economic crisis. Economies are fluid. We are struggling now, but the doom and gloom of the right is nothing but political opportunism or it would have been brought up when Bush and Reagan were creating their own record deficits.

    Also, the fact that the conservative policies of Herbert Hoover and George Bush ushered in our worst economies should not be ignored. Ultimately, we will need to get more money into the hands of the working class in order to strengthen our economy. In other words, we probably need a decade or so of greater statism and higher taxation on the wealthy to bring our economy back in line. Personally, I would favor a one-time tax on assets.
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2010
  6. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    yea affectionately referred to as the righty woe is me crowd, even though they do not realize it will affect the way of the world as we know it..

    would think that they would want things to go well, but otoh.. if it does fail then they can say I told you so in some post acolyptic transe..
  7. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Rookie

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    One thing is for sure Flex, there are a few that keep saying "there are people here who seem to want America to fail".

    I don't want America to fail, I want big spending to fail. I want most socialist policies to fail very, very badly everytime they are implimented without exception.

    "The Welfare" state isn't good anyway...never was and never will be. Govt's job is to govern, not take care of people. Sure, society needs some safety nets, but not things that drive our budget into the ground or in time will force the average or slightly above average person to pay 40-50% of their income to the tax man. What kind of county and lifestyle would that be?

    We now have some people in this country who have been getting unemployment checks for

    2 YEARS NON-STOP

    Gee....think these people have any incentive to take a job they don't want or cuz it pays too little? Its a very sad fact that most people who go on unemployment ACTUALLY wait a few weeks until they truly start looking for a job. A significant number ACTUALLY try to time getting a job when to when their benefits run out.

    I ACTUALLY think people who do those things are losers.

    Last edited: Mar 2, 2010
  8. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You can rant and rail all you want about unemployment, most people would choose work over unemployment.. there are anecdotal examples, but in reality unemployment payments and work paychecks are not equal.. there is no provision for paying into a retirement program, lack of socialization, no continuation of medical benefits after the initial help... plus the added factor of boredom, in reality we are all programmed to work and most people would choose that venue.

    There seems to be an effort to equate unemployment with some type of welfare program.. not really true, as for the most part unemployed people are not on there because of something they did.. they are on it because their company/employer did something wrong or because we are coming out of a recession..
  9. reflexblue

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    #91 Jersey

    We need to make the tough decisions, everybody has to sacrifice. The Bush tax cuts have to end, cuts have to be made in entitlement programs, maybe a tax increase. No politician will even mention increasing tax's or cut programs, for fear of not being elected, thats not leadership People in this country don't want to hear that they may have to give something up.
  10. reflexblue

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    #91 Jersey

    Guilty conscience? What does this unemployment rant have to do with 13's thread here. And what are the people that have no money and no job supposse to do? Would you like tent cities, or i have an idea the whole family could go rob a bank... a joint venture kind of thing, they could all go to jail. Three meals a day a shower hot water, a bunk all for $40,000 per person double occupancy a year :rolleyes:
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2010
  11. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Rookie

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    I am of the opinion that we do not have a revenue problem, we have a SPENDING problem. And we have for a long, long time and both parties are guilty.

    Gov't job is to govern, not to be caretakers.

    BTW....if this health care proposal passes with the stipulation of taxing cadillac health plans beginning in 2018, it will go to the supreme court. Why? Because you can't tax SOME peoples' private health insurance and not others of the same value. In other words, UNION workers' health plans must also be taxed...they can't legally be exempted from a cadillac HP tax.

    Why should I be taxed on my health plan and a union guy with a plan just as good and expensive not be taxed? That can not be legal.

    Last edited: Mar 2, 2010
  12. patsfan13

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    Well Said!





    Remember from Animal Farm, some animals are more equal than others...
  13. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The country will fail when the Government finally takes control of your whole life, when rats like Pelosi/Obama tell you what to eat, where to live, when they choose your Doctor, when they control the kind of car you drive, and when to move your bowels etc etc.

    The beginning of all this is happening right now, do any of you think that Obama/Pelosi/Reid or the rest of their Progressive Gang CARE WHAT YOU THE PEOPLE THINK OR WANT, to them you are their children and you better do what they tell you to do.

    :bricks:
  14. patsfan13

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    How do you support this sort of model (ponzi scheme) when the number of workers is going to fall drastically relative to the number of government dependents?
  15. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Rookie

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    Only Utopian idealists with blinders on can see the caretaker state lasting or becoming the status quo. Thank God mainstream America will never support this. Wait until the next election cycle for proof of what mainstream Americans want.

    If THEY ever have the nerve to claim "Tyranny of the majority" in the case of what middle-Americans desire, a revolution will surely take place.
  16. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Capitalism itself is a Ponzi scheme, and as long as we continue to play ball the Ponzi scheme works. Every now and then, for whatever reason, people get scared and the scheme begins to unravel, but usually that only lasts a few years. We need to raise taxes or cut benefits in the current scenario. I say, let's raise taxes on the wealthy, since they get more indirect benefits than anyone else -- after all, they get the benefit of system being designed to their economic ambitions. That's not working very well right now.
  17. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Rookie

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    I'd support raising taxes on the wealthy. But prolly not to the levels you'd support. I also think a flat tax is worth considering.

  18. patsfan13

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    Please explain how (what should be ) free voluntary exchanges among people is a ponzi scheme. From you comment it appears you have no understanding of capitalism.
  19. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Rookie

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    Prolly believes it's all a ponzi scheme that siphons money to the top!
  20. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The value of a corporation is based at least in part on shareholder faith, not actual analysis, and is subject to manipulation by corporations misrepresenting their actual profits and their areas of vulnerability. While actual profit plays a role in valuation, there are many other factors including riding a wave, which is really Ponzi-like. Also, just about any objective measure of future profitability is fairly arbitrary and subject to manipulation. (And please keep in mind that I am as much a defender of capitalism as anyone on this board, though I do favor higher taxation and more government services.)
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2010

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