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The Bubble of Higher Education

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by State, Jul 26, 2011.

  1. State

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    Glenn Reynolds, a law prof at the Univ of Tenn, keeps writing about it effectively. Instapundit » Search Results » higher education bubble

    Heather MacDonald shows how some universities that are imploding in California because of the funding crisis, paring off real academic programs even as it adds bloat to the diversity team, showing the narcissism of the place.
    Less Academics, More Narcissism by Heather Mac Donald - City Journal

    Those darlings will be so sensitive about ethnic concerns as they work at McDonald's, where half of the new jobs are coming from.

    Who needs electrical engineers when fries need to be put in the grease?
  2. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    Well, realistically speaking, State, if that's where half the new jobs are coming at least half of them will probably end up there anyhow, won't they?
  3. State

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    Well, engineers have a tendency to be able to create jobs.

    You know, new firms and the like.
  4. State

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    It looks as though the Lake Wobegon effect (all the children are above average) is alive and well at colleges and universities with the A grade growing and the D grade disappearing.

    The gentleman's C is an endangered species.

    A History of College Grade Inflation - NYTimes.com
  5. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    They've also had the tendency to be the first ones to start losing jobs when the economy starts going bad.

    The unemployment rate for engineering and computer occupations is rising faster than for other professionals, according to the IEEE, which says first quarter labor statistics reveal a significant increase in the jobless rates among engineers.

    According to a press release from the IEEE, the unemployment rate for all engineers jumped from 2.9% to 3.9% from the last quarter of 2008 to the first quarter this year. The IEEE says the numbers grew faster when compared with the increase in unemployment from quarter to quarter for all professional workers -- from 3% to 3.7% -- over the same timeframe. And perhaps even more worrisome, the IEEE says, is the increase of the unemployment rate from 1.2% overall in 2007 to nearly 4% now.

    Breaking it down, the unemployment rate for electrical and electronics engineers rose from 2.4% to 4.1%. Mechanical engineers saw an increase from 2.1% to 4.2% in jobless rates and aerospace engineers experienced a less dramatic increase in unemployment rates from 1.1% to 1.4%, over the same timeframe. The IEEE based its findings on numbers released last week by the U.S. Department of Labor's Bureau of Labor Statistics.

    In computer occupations, the unemployment rate for software engineers went from 1.9% to 4.2%, and for computer scientists and systems analysts, the change was from 3% to 5.7% from quarter to quarter.


    Engineer unemployment rate spikes


    Sixteen percent of our more than 800 respondents (as of Thursday) are jobless right now. That's seven points higher than the national rate. Extrapolate that across the North American engineering cohort, and you're talking tens of thousands of good, qualified engineers looking for work.

    What's worse? Half of you (48%) have been out of engineering work for two years or more. That's a stretch that's almost unimaginable to me.


    unemployment, labor, engineering, engineers, jobless, labor statistics, electronics, EDA | Help for unemployed engineers




    You know - unemploment, homelessness and the like.
  6. State

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    And yet they can bounce back and often do.

    I think part of this is the age factor. Older guys as engineers.
  7. patsfan13

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  8. chicowalker

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    Can you offer any evidence of the undergrad diversity requirement causing the elimination of the engineering masters programs (along with the masters program in comparative lit)?
  9. The Brandon Five

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    Not sure you can show that one caused the other, but they certainly are prioritizing the former over the latter (it seems).

  10. chicowalker

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    I don't think you can draw the conclusion that the two are related.

    One is an undergrad requirement that could be taking a single course out of dozens that are offered. The others are entire masters programs.
  11. patsfan13

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    If you have a budget or bucket of money, they have allocated the bucket to provide diversity training as a requirement for all students, that leaves less money in the bucket for programs like grad programs in engineering and comp sci and lit.

    As a business owner that should be pretty easy for you to understand.
  12. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    I can offer some evidence that it wasn't while we're waiting for State or 13 to get back to us with the data State loves so much.

    The Graduate Council asked for, and received, approval to disestablish (discontinue) several programs in response to budgetary pressures: a master of engineering degree in electrical and computer engineering; a terminal master of arts in comparative literature; and courses in French, German, Spanish and English literatures that have seen very sparse enrollments.

    Academic Senate OKs Campuswide Diversity Requirement
  13. chicowalker

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    Less money doesn't equal causation.

    If I buy a new laptop for one office while at the same time closing another office, it would be flawed reasoning to simply conclude that the purchase of the laptop caused the closure of the office, or even that the laptop was a higher priority than the office.

    As an adult that should be pretty easy for you to understand. (and particularly given that you seem to pride yourself on your scientific / technical knowledge, I really shouldn't have to explain the difference between correlation and causation)
  14. patsfan13

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    So the engineering and comp sci programs were dumped in deference to forced indoctrination in a Diversity program, wonder how many students would volunteer for it it it weren't mandated.

    Thanks for verifying what State and I said about abolishing the eng programs.
  15. chicowalker

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    False, but keep putting on display your lack of reasoning ability.


    Is that how schooling should work -- no requirements, students do whatever they want?

    Funny, in the past the right would have derided that kind of "curriculum" as lefty nonsense.

    But I guess the brainwashing of the righty masses that "free" markets are the only goal to strive for, coupled with the newfound belief on the right that education is "elitist," has produced in you an attitude that students shouldn't have any requirements.
  16. Real World

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    The way it's written could mean that the language courses have had sparse enrollments.
  17. Real World

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    Who cares what that state does anyway. That ship is sinking, and sinking fast. The sooner it finds itself at the bottom of the sea, the sooner the spared crew can get to work on building a more efficient boat.
  18. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

    Sometimes you really irritate me....other times you just totally make my day.
  19. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    The punctuation points to "sparse enrollment" as being all-inclusive.
  20. patsfan13

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    No the semi colon separates the courses in English, Spanish and the other lit courses not the eng courses, if a comma was used you would have a point. As usual you missed the point.
  21. PatsFanInVa

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    That's what we call ambiguity. You set off a run-in list with commas unless one set of items in the list is already set off with commas. The author of the passage probably could use one of the aforementioned disestablished courses, or at least some sort of plain language refresher.

    My first read agrees with yours actually, 13. But as usual, you take an opinion based on gut feel and ignorance and proclaim your omniscience.

    Since you're trained in engineering rather than grammar, I think it's best if you stick to topics you at least can claim to understand... although I am still awaiting the answer to the question of whether a radioactive particle is greater or smaller than one inch in diameter.

    PFnV
  22. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    Forgive me, 13, but I have a hard time taking punctuation advice from someone who wrote the following:

  23. PatriotsReign

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    To stay focused on the thread topic and not get wrapped up minor issues...

    The cost of a college education is about 2 times what's it worth. I wonder how they figure any aducation is worth $250k?

    Second point regarding "The bubble of higher education" is that it's almost always better to get a college education vs. not getting one.

    Final point...it's time we looked closely at our higher ed. system and re-vamped it...because as it exists today in America...it SUCKS.
  24. DarrylS

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    Here is a little factoid for you.. the largest recipient of federal funds in Virginia is Liberty University... since they started their on line indoctrination, they now receive 445 million dollars in federally subsidized student aid.

    Most of whom go to school in their pajama's.. mo money, mo money.
  25. PatsFanInVa

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    Oh god damn it.
  26. PatsFanInVa

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    By the way, while tuition costs are of course, ridiculous, it's amazing that one can make this argument with certainty, when the present valuation of the future benefit of any given degree is utterly dependent on accounting and bias.

    You don't know how much the difference between no degree and degree is in the future. You do know it's already huge and unlikely to get smaller.

    All you know is the future cost, which is unpalateable. But again, you don't know the outcome of future economic events.

    A year ago every rightie soothsayer known to man was saying we're going to be Zimbabwe any minute, but interest rates have been essentially zero since then.

    Now comes this guy who evidently thinks that debt will never be eroded by inflation, and you guys want to pile onto that too.

    Strikes me that the cost of borrowing is about to skyrocket and the best play one could make, if one had the option at this writing, would be to get a student loan for the whole cost of tuition processed now. The cost of borrowing is very likely to skyrocket with the likely downgrading of U.S. debt, so you do your borrowing on the cheap, and when the borrowing cost skyrockets, you're locked in.

    If inflation goes structural and becomes wage inflation -- especially among the educated, where spot labor markets are tight and where wage inflation would pertain -- you win.

    But again, that's another uncertain play.

    A higher ed bubble is a tough call to make based on our current knowledge of future developments.

    PFnV

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