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The Bitter Tears of the American Christian Supermajority

Discussion in 'Religion and Lighthearted Discussion' started by PatsFanInVa, Mar 30, 2014.

  1. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Interesting read on the "persecution" of American Christians...

    The bitter tears of the American Christian supermajority | Al Jazeera America

    I'd be interested to discuss this rationally as a political phenomenon, but if need be, would not mind it going over to the religion forum. However, if so, I humbly request that all the "war on christmas" and similar threads be banished there as well. Then we'll be in big trouble if we want to talk about Hobby Lobby n such too... so anyway - what do you guys make of this article?

    Please do read the article before responding. Here's one of three cases cited at the article's outset...

    PFnV
     
  2. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It's a good article, but it's really hard to see how to make this into a good discussion, for the simple reason that criticizing the group in question would simply feed their persecution complex. In psychology, we call these Axis II diagnoses, where the belief system is so integral to the person that they cannot see it as a problem. Obviously, Christians have fared well throughout the centuries and their gain has often come by committing terrible crimes against American Indians, Jews, blacks and others. But, their victimhood is a source of strength for them, its at the root of a religion where Jesus died for our sins. If they are not victims, they cannot be martyrs, and thus cannot Christians at some level. That said, I do think the vast majority of Christians today do not subscribe to the victimhood theory. It's mostly a phenomenon of the Christian right.
     
  3. patsfan13

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    Well I am not a Christian but have relatives who are.

    As we look at the decaying culture of the West we note a number of things. Mass prosecution of Christians across the Muslim world, and in communist regimes like China and PRNK. It is also apparent that the USA and other Western Countries do not react at all to this persecution.

    We also see incidents where militant atheist, and gay activist are trying to drive Christian culture and opinions from the public square using the club of political correctness. Yet we here no such protestations when Muslims or others seek accommodations for their beliefs. When is the last time a Christian Church objected to say a Menorah in a public square.


    In England and Canada we have seen Christians subject to hate speech laws for expressing their faith as it has been practiced for thousands of years.

    CULTURE NEWS: Supremes Rule Bible as 'Hate Speech' in Canada

    Is There Free Speech for Christians in Britain?

    Of course just recently P RObertson was accused of hate speech for being a Christian who expressed his views publicly.

    Hate Speech: The New Inquisition

    Sweden is going down Canada's path:

    Criminalizing Christianity: Sweden's Hate Speech Law - Al Mohler


    So Christians see the trends around the world the hostility of the left towards traditional Christianity and their intolerance, yeah they will react to that.
     
  4. RI Patriots fan

    RI Patriots fan In the Starting Line-Up

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    How ironic :rolleyes:
     
  5. RI Patriots fan

    RI Patriots fan In the Starting Line-Up

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    Cuomo made his breathtaking remarks during a radio interview Friday as he discussed the widening Republican rift between moderates, whose support he’s seeking in his re-election campaign, and conservatives, whom he characterized as anti-abortion, anti-gay rights and pro-traditional gun ownership.

    “Who are they?” asked Cuomo of the Republicans.

    “Are they these extreme conservatives, who are right to life, pro-assault weapon, anti-gay? Is that who they are? Because if that is who they are and if they are extreme conservatives, they have no place in the state of New York.’’


    GOP blasts Cuomo?s comments on conservatives | New York Post


    So basically, any faithful chrisitan....leave NY state.
     
  6. everlong

    everlong Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    #12 Jersey

    Christian's asking for tolerance............ironic.
     
  7. PatsWSB47

    PatsWSB47 Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    #12 Jersey

    It's remarks like that that helps fuel the persecution feeling I think. In fact your statement is what's ironic.
     
  8. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey

    I don't really agree with much of the article ... it takes assumptions and tries to paint them as facts. Al-Jazeera eats that stuff up when it comes to Christians ... they love painting Christians as feeble.

    I have several ongoing opinions on Christians in the country. On the one hand I do not like when some try to suppress their freedom of speech ... they try to overpower the message of the Christians and color them as evil. I think they have a right to their opinion, they have a right to wish the country stays as is without them losing more and more of what's been integrated into the country over the years.

    That being said I don't like how some of them deny the right of others to have a country that is not Christian or less Christian. To have laws that are not faith based. There's definitely a type of skirmish going on and both sides have dug in.

    Okay so now that I say that I also say I see nothing wrong with it overall ... it is our democracy changing, our demographics changing ... our country is changing. In other countries this leads to war - tribal skirmishes - people being slaughtered and churches and places of worship being destroyed. I think overall we should let it play out - it's healthy and natural and there really is nothing wrong with it ... it makes our country stronger not weaker and the author is more anti-America than he is pro-America as his body of work kind of shows.
     
  9. Bobsyouruncle

    Bobsyouruncle Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    It's fairly obvious that it's true. I was in Afghanistan when we were forced to take down the crosses on the chapels. But more than that I can't go through a day looking on FB where somebody hasn't said something negative and hateful about Christians. It's in the movies, how many movies have the bad guy as some Christian nut despite the reality that it is not Christians blowing **** up. "V" for vendetta is one of the most hateful movies I've ever seen. Literally had the Church of England trying to take over the world while a gay guy keeps the Quran because of its beautiful "imagery." I mean, holy retard- they kill and jail homosexuals in Muslim countries but it's Christians that are the focus of this multi-million dollar film? The only countries who even have women's rights and gay marriage are the western countries who are all... Christian.

    It's clear their is a huge ant-religous sentiment, which I suppose is fine but the hypocrisy that is apparent by the hateful things said about Christians and Mormons vs Muslims or hindu's is could only be described as targeting. Why isn't their a play making fun of the Quran but their is about the Book of Mormon. I suppose people don't want to get killed but that sort of shows how misplaced the hate is.

    Consider the thing many people spend their whole lives worrying about- race. And yet you don't have movies showing black people are evil. No politicians say anything bad about black people, you can't even have reasonable criticism of a black person because people are so irrational you'll be accused of racism. And now imagine the replacing the things people say about Christians with blacks, or Hispanics. If it's hateful, it's hateful. I'm sure they'll live but I don't see how anyone could really think they're making it up unless they were blind and deaf.

    Also, WTF is a super majority? Is it about 75%?
     
  10. chicowalker

    chicowalker Pro Bowl Player

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    Not sure if any of what you wrote here is a response to the article VA posted.

    But 3 thoughts here:

    (i) We should react to persecution of Christians abroad the same as we react to similar persecution of people of other religious faiths.

    (ii) What did Robertson actually say? Your link didn't seem to get into that. I'm not sure what I think about "hate speech" labels, especially if it isn't something that would clearly fall into that category. But if what he or anybody else said would fall into that category, I don't view religious faith as an excuse. Even if the reason you hate somebody is your religion, you still hate them. But as I said, I'm not sure what he said or if it would fall under that heading.

    and most important:

    (iii) re "We also see incidents where militant atheist, and gay activist are trying to drive Christian culture and opinions from the public square using the club of political correctness. Yet we here no such protestations when Muslims or others seek accommodations for their beliefs. When is the last time a Christian Church objected to say a Menorah in a public square."

    The notion that Christian culture and opinions are in any way being driven out of the public square is ludicrous.

    What comparison are you trying to make between Christianity and Islam? In Tennessee, protestors were trying to prevent a Muslim cemetery. I don't recall protests against Christian cemeteries. Out here in socal a couple years ago, there were protests against a muslim cultural center -- I think the same occurred in that same tennessee town. Many people here -- including you -- didn't want a cultural center or mosque built near the WTC in downtown NYC; have you ever opposed any church or christian center being built?

    The comparison of treatment of the two religions or their adherents in America is just laughable.

    As for the menorah: when was the last time you saw a menorah in a public square that didn't accommodate a nativity, Christmas tree or other Christian symbols?
     
  11. chicowalker

    chicowalker Pro Bowl Player

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    I see far more on facebook from Christians complaining about things like "under god" being in the pledge, about wanting prayer in public schools, about wanting more god, etc., than I see hatred of Christians.

    I also see far more on facebook and in other online comments that are hateful toward Muslims (and blacks and gays).

    and there are plenty of movies showing blacks as evil. I don't watch a lot of movies these days, but there are always black criminals and other black characters who are no good.

    I'm curious -- are you Christian? if so, have you ever been persecuted for your religion?
     
  12. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #24 Jersey

    Facebook is mostly just visable from and to people you've "friended," isn't it? So, if you're seeing negative and hateful things about Christians on your facebook page, I'd have to guess that they are being put there by people you know. If it's offensive to you - unfriend them. Don't follow them. Don't let them follow you. Easy-peasy.

    I had a friend request from a girl I went to high school with....turned out that she had a thing against Jews. I simply unfriended her. Not a problem. She's entitled to her views - I'm entitled to block them.

    V was made in 2005. Can you come up with something a bit more current as an example?
     
  13. Hamar

    Hamar In the Starting Line-Up

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    See, I would have never guessed Chicowalker was friends with a bunch of people that dislike muslims and gays.

    "I also see far more on facebook and in other online comments that are hateful toward Muslims (and blacks and gays)."

    Or that he had a tendency to watch movies that portray blacks as criminals.

    Don't worry Chico, i don't believe it for a minute! And I don't think anyone else her does, well... maybe one person, but I think she is wrong in this instance ;)
     
  14. chicowalker

    chicowalker Pro Bowl Player

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    :)

    Fortunately, far more is in the comments I see, rather than from friends. And the folks on the right here either won't believe this or won't like this, but it often comes from sites that are clearly on the right.

    Most of what I see from "friends" are the people clamoring for more god. (They're mostly extended family members.)

    But yes, many movies portray blacks as criminals or just as bad, or highly flawed, people. Just like they portray whites as criminals, bad or highly flawed people. I don't agree with bobsyouruncle's claim about that at all.
     
  15. Bobsyouruncle

    Bobsyouruncle Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    Post your FB pics, I don't think you can find any without googling them. "Under god" is already in the pledge of allegiance so they could only be responding to people who want it out. That's a two way street.

    I don't believe you. You can always find random anonymous comments that say anything to "shock." But on FB people are much more careful because they have their name attached. You can watch Comedy Central or I even listed a big budget movie and a broadway play. Even in this thread somebody called Christians hypocritical. Criticism for Christians is mainstream and accepted. Frankly, that's fine because criticism is part of a free society but anyone can plainly see they are more targeted than other groups who do far less charity or are far more dangerous.

    Name one

    So some random black criminal means they are saying blacks are evil? Absurd. Guess Hollywood can't have any black criminals. Can they have white ones? Or probably no races. Blacks aren't criminals in movies any more than real life, if anything it's less. I gave you an example where Christians are trying to take over the world as a collective group in a movie. Just look at Tebow, how much hate did he get. For what? Is he a criminal? Does he hurt people?

    No, I'm not but I can see what's in front of my face. And I can see that the people in this world who we need to worry about aren't Christians. It looks to me like the Christians run a hell of a lot of charities and hospitals (and Mormons too) and their critics usually have nothing but hateful words. It's "hip" or whatever to pick on them and not other groups. It is what it is, I'm just saying lots of people see the hypocrisy.

    This was on my FB today.
     

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  16. Bobsyouruncle

    Bobsyouruncle Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    It's not offensive, the hypocrisy is amusing, the denial that it exists can only be described as self deception. The simple fact that it's so mainstream, and viral when it comes to liking pictures means that I would have to filter a lot out. I'm not that sensitive.

    White House down.
     
  17. chicowalker

    chicowalker Pro Bowl Player

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    If you're basically going to call me a liar (twice) while pretending to have a conversation, then you can **** off.
     
  18. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    By and large, Christianity is constantly shoved in our face. Because of all the special privileges granted religion it's only natural that Christian churches should be on every corner. Because our country is 80% or more Christian, its only natural that Christmas, Easter, and other holidays should get a lot of attention in the media, in schools, and in other walks of life. Because our society is largely Christian, it's not surprising that a walk through Harvard Square will have me pass many people wearing crosses, religious folk handing out literature on Jesus, and monks in their robes (from a nearby Episcopolian monastery) out and about. Wherever we turn, we are greeted by reminders of Christianity--whether its Christmas songs, church bells tolling, religious feasts in the North End, and so on. No one minds any of these events. It's simply part of our culture.

    Christians also assert themselves into many controversial political topics, such as gay rights, gay marriage, abortion, helping the poor, even taxes and guns; since they are not sacrosanct, if they insert themselves into political causes, they will get some wrath, which some Christians try to deflect by calling it anti-Christianity. Because of some of the Christian churches holier than thou attitude, child abuse scandals and money scandals by churches draw as much scrutiny as crimes by Wall Street execs, politicians, or union bosses.

    Thus, some Christians are criticized for good reasons and rarely are Christians generally and broadly criticized. To the extent they are, we have to consider there are 10x as many Christians in our country than all other religions combined, so the odds of them facing criticism are naturally higher.

    The problem is that there is a group of usually white conservative Christians who use any criticism as proof of the country's moral decay and proof of their victimhood. These Christians like to be victims, and let's hope the electoral process grants them their wishes. Outside of these, I think very few Christians feel oppressed or maltreated in our nation. I think Muslims, Jews, and Atheists, among others, have it worse.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2014
  19. DarrylS

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    All of this is akin to "querulous paranoia", groups who obsessively feel wronged, particularly about minor causes of action.. as though there is some grand conspiracy out there, when there is not... but it makes great fodder for talk shows.

    Identifying minor issues as part of some grand conspiracy serves as a unifying force, "onward christian soldiers marching as to war"... and perhaps a ploy by leaders to help increase leadership.
     
  20. PatsFanInVa

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    If you want something that demonstrates where the preponderance of the bile comes from, find any story about a Muslim or Black person, where the "verdict" is up in the air. Or even where it isn't. Look up any news story on a news site on local opposition to building a mosque... then look at the comments.

    The more populist the site, the more hateful comments you'll find.

    Especially any story about a Black man who's committed a crime - it'll all be familiar to you if you've read PatsFans for any length of time. Maybe a couple of "bad words" you don't see here (oh the horrors of "political correctness.") But it's an instructive exercise.

    Aha, we must narrow our view to the "self-policed" Facebook posts (because names are attached.) As the Mrs. points out, the self-policing is confined to one's group of friends. I think it's possible that this goes as much by what one is afraid will show up to employers as how "cool" one's friends are. I.e., if friends are actively in their worklives, that might control bile more than one's political bent. Mid-career versus high-school/college kids (and in the case of the Mrs.' anti-semitic friends, retirees.)

    Don't remember what this is in reference to.

    Tebow is a bad football player. He also acts entitled about playing the QB position, when he's marginal to make a roster at all. When he was with the Pats for 15 minutes, despite his obnoxious and very public agenda, I was all for BB and company finding something that they could make work. I doubted it, but if it happened, I was fine with it.

    I think anti-Tebowism had to do with his using a very shaky platform (based on his "abilities" and visibility) to push things like his anti-choice agenda, not what he personally believed in his heart. Furthermore, pointing to heaven when you do something good in football is a well-worn meme, and "Tebowing" is pretty much the same thing (but more visible; it takes much more time and is much more dramatic.) My problem with Tebowism is that he never had the chops to back it up, and he emphasized his proselytizing instinct, basing it on a foundation that didn't exist. "I give the glory of my great athletic career to God" is so much more appropriate when you have a great athletic career.

    Similarly, the topic of the OP is that the persecution one has to worry about in America isn't against Christians. Can you see what's in front of your face on that score as well? Or is it just not in front of your face?

    The photo you posted is a critique not of Christianity but of the misuse of funds for religious displays rather than according to the heart of Christian and other religions, that is attending to the less fortunate. It could easily have been posted by a Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindu, Buddhist, or atheist.

    Perhaps not the atheist, since it posits a proper use of funding to please God.

    PFnV
     

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