Welcome to PatsFans.com

the BIGGEST problem with the Pats passing attack

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by ALP, Jan 24, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. ALP

    ALP Rookie

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2007
    Messages:
    7,401
    Likes Received:
    7
    Ratings:
    +7 / 0 / -0

    in short: a lack of attempting to hit intermediate routes (15-30 yds downfield from the line of scrimmage)

    in essence the pats passing attack, from coaches to Brady have created a mentality of a short passing game, and that mentality is so strong that it is hampering the possibilities of the offense

    my point is that its this mentality that is the prob, not the personnel, or the talent

    though a short passing game that is efficient and quick in the NFL is an absolute killer, it should NOT be your primary objective, an intermediate passing game should be, with the short passing game existing as what you run most routes on, but only if the intermediate is not available

    this is even more so when we have a run game, b/c a short pass game and a run game essentially serve the same purpose, a 4 or 5 or even 6 yd route is almost the same thing as running the ball for us (this past season when we ran so well), but it has so many more points of failure (protection, pass, deflection, INT, PD, easy drop, bad throw, DB coverage, miscommunication) whereareas a run will maybe net you less yards, but will have the effects of having many less points of failure (and has positives such as establishing dominance at the line and tiring out a defense, fumbles are also less likely than INT's, also sets up PA)

    in order to achieve this we need to look at the types of routes our receivers are asked to run:

    Wes: as a slot receiver who is quick, yet slow he is best suited in the 4-10yd range of passes, and that's good, because that is where he absolutely dominates, no one else in this league can do what he does in that area, and he should be the either the only, or one of two routes run in this space, his size also makes him better in this space

    Aaron: can be used as an intermediate weapon, though we have not done that very much, he has the speed and size to accomplish this, especially if covered by LB's

    Gronk: ULTIMATE intermediate route weapon, just heave it up when he runs either a slant, post or streak/go and you will be golden, he is also fast enough to be an intermediate target

    Lloyd: the primary problem with Lloyd is the routes he has been asked to run, early on in the season he ran the comeback route a LOT, and got 10-15 yds on it, where did that go? in the playoffs he ran mostly slants, well what exactly do you expect? he is not allowed to do anything, of course hes not gonna be able to get to the intermediate space, but that is not because he cannot, he has simply been tasked with running routes that attack the same depth of the field, but just outside the hash marks

    those are our 4 main weapons, an edelman or RB can run either an intermediate or short route (preferably short), Aaron can run both, though I would use Gronk as almost solely an intermediate target, why throw it to him 5 yards out? it makes no sense

    the biggest problem recently with attacking the intermediate portion of the field is this: the gameplan makes brady get rid of the ball TOO fast, our O-lines have struggled in games, but if you take their work over a season they have been quite good, in these playoffs brady usually had all day to throw the ball, yet still got rid of it within 3 seconds...b/c of the gameplan, and its focus on short routes

    let Brady take deeper drops, let him hold the ball longer, and let him survey the field, and not waste that effort on a 5yd pass, but on a 15-30 yd pass

    this is what happened in the Texans games (both) where we absolutely manhandled a very good team, this is what did NOT happen in the Balt. game, where we got absolutely manhandled by an OK defense

    MAKE THE INTERMEDIATE PASSING GAME YOUR PRIORITY, AND YOU WILL WIN IN THE PLAYOFFS
  2. upstater1

    upstater1 Rookie

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2005
    Messages:
    12,926
    Likes Received:
    9
    Ratings:
    +9 / 0 / -0

    What hurts the passing game is no Gronk. When he's in there they not only have intermediate routes but they go deep.

    Let's take away Crabtree and Andre Johnson and Julio Jones, etc., and let's see how those teams do without them.
  3. satz

    satz Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2006
    Messages:
    1,919
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0

    You forgot to add one more item.THE system

    We are so dependent on a system which highlight players who cannot be healthy for 16 games. So we have a broken non stable system.


    Put hernandaz for 6 games for a year. He will give you 10 games
    Gronk - Playoff is his kryponite
    2 TE system with 1 good TE and scrubs.
    LLoyd is not a Yac or Pure outside guy.

    i think this is an issue with the system ,after yrs trying to go this 2 TE system it might be time to move to a more WR system. In the NFL guess the speed/hits make a pure TE system hard ,unless you have 4 good/great TE.


    we cannot go 5 wide [5 actual options] and let brady do his job. i will resign edelman, wes and then run a 5 wide with hernandaz and gronk in there. that leave 1 WR - he need not be this crazy speed guy but some one good as 07 gaffney or better a 04 givens[physical].

    we not only cannot stretch the field Veritcally we cannot stretch it Horizontally. Brady is killer when you build a Horizontal game.This also moves safeties wide leading to more effective runs.
  4. chris_in_sunnyvale

    chris_in_sunnyvale Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2005
    Messages:
    2,091
    Likes Received:
    8
    Ratings:
    +8 / 0 / -0

    Two biggest problems*, IMO:

    - Too much shotgun. Doesn't keep the D guessing enough. That extra uncertainty of run vs. pass might help free receivers more in just enough plays to keep possessions alive and get scores.

    - Underutilizing the RBs. RBs are used plenty in the screen game, but nowhere near enough as primary options in real passing routes. Faulk was the last guy to have his number called routinely on flares out of the backfield. The lack of using the RBs in this manner allows the D to focus attention on Welker, the TEs and Lloyd. This would have helped a ton vs. Baltimore.

    * "Problems" is subjective. Against most defenses, the Pats passing attack is unstoppable.

    Regards,
    Chris
  5. Ice_Ice_Brady

    Ice_Ice_Brady Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2006
    Messages:
    2,317
    Likes Received:
    7
    Ratings:
    +9 / 1 / -0

    Of all the playmakers in the NFL, you put Crabree on this list?

    Gronkowski, in my opinion, is the best non-quarterback in the NFL. Not only is he the league leader the last two years in yards per target (a very important stat), he's also the league leader in touchdowns. That does not even account for the fact that he's a menacing run blocker and his presence on the offensive line makes the offense deceptive on almost every play.
  6. ausbacker

    ausbacker Brady > Manning. PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2008
    Messages:
    12,963
    Likes Received:
    17
    Ratings:
    +22 / 0 / -0

    #51 Jersey

    IMO, that's the biggest problem with the passing game.

    As usual, great post Chris.
  7. KontradictioN

    KontradictioN Do you even lift? PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2006
    Messages:
    25,450
    Likes Received:
    69
    Ratings:
    +94 / 2 / -2

    #24 Jersey

    Gronk would have won us this game, more than likely. To get to the promised land, you need to be able to threaten all levels of the field. The Pats offense, as is currently constructed, is incapable of doing that. They need one more threat. I would like to see a Demaryius Thomas type threat added to the offense, personally. I'm not sure how an offense like that can be stopped.
  8. ausbacker

    ausbacker Brady > Manning. PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2008
    Messages:
    12,963
    Likes Received:
    17
    Ratings:
    +22 / 0 / -0

    #51 Jersey

    Keenan Allen, Cordarrelle Patterson, Terrance Williams, Justin Hunter and Da'Rick Rogers fit the mold physically.

    Any of those interest you and are they obtainable given most are first or second round graded players.
  9. Brady_to_Moss

    Brady_to_Moss Revis Island is here PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2007
    Messages:
    16,682
    Likes Received:
    10
    Ratings:
    +16 / 0 / -0

    #95 Jersey

    i don't know why they didn't use lloyd in this light...he was always running short routes..have him go to that 15-30 yard gap now and then
  10. ALP

    ALP Rookie

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2007
    Messages:
    7,401
    Likes Received:
    7
    Ratings:
    +7 / 0 / -0

    exactly, and every so often let him even go deep on 1on1 coverage w/ no safety help....

    the thing is that its not the personnel, we do not need to add another playmaker, we are good the way we are, we need to focus on utilizing them in other ways


    on the injury front: Gronk broke his arm on a PAT, can you tell me the last time you remember hurting themselves on a PAT? it was just bad luck
    Ahern does have injury issues, but its only been two seasons
  11. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    19,975
    Likes Received:
    24
    Ratings:
    +28 / 1 / -0

    The biggest problem with the passing attack is that we have no wide receivers other than Lloyd signed for this coming season.
  12. DocHoliday

    DocHoliday Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2010
    Messages:
    2,755
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    The biggest problem is injuries.

    The end.
  13. borg

    borg Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2004
    Messages:
    3,712
    Likes Received:
    7
    Ratings:
    +7 / 0 / -0

    Play action would help, but Josh refuses play action on 3rd downs in big games. Zero attempts on 3rd down vs Balt. Zero attempts on 3rd down vs GMen in 2007 SB.....Josh's last two playoff losses
  14. Brady_to_Moss

    Brady_to_Moss Revis Island is here PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2007
    Messages:
    16,682
    Likes Received:
    10
    Ratings:
    +16 / 0 / -0

    #95 Jersey

    I know alot of ppl hate lloyd..but half the time he wasn't given the chance or route to run those deeper posts ect
  15. Brady_to_Moss

    Brady_to_Moss Revis Island is here PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2007
    Messages:
    16,682
    Likes Received:
    10
    Ratings:
    +16 / 0 / -0

    #95 Jersey

    You don't think that will change? They will keep welker and or edelman with a splash in FA or maybe a trade for someone like harvin
  16. ausbacker

    ausbacker Brady > Manning. PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2008
    Messages:
    12,963
    Likes Received:
    17
    Ratings:
    +22 / 0 / -0

    #51 Jersey

    Lloyd nearly put up 1,000 yards despite being the fourth receiving option behind Welker, Gronkowski and Hernandez. The hate directed his way is absurd.
  17. DropKickFlutie

    DropKickFlutie Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2010
    Messages:
    1,119
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    Patriots will never win another Superbowl, they will waste Brady's last years, until the team acknowledges they are not losing because of talent issues.

    I don't care if the Patriots have Joe Montana at QB, Jerry Rice and Randy Moss at WR, Jim Brown at RB. If teams in playoffs go through extensive preparation studying how to stop the offense, and the coaches do NOT adjust whatsoever when something is clearly not working in a game, that all star offense can be stopped. We saw it from the other side as fans when the Patriots beat the Rams in 2001 with a below-average roster, against the league's best offense and 4th best defense. Look at the massive impact the Saints experienced this year without their strategic coach. Coaching in this league is so much more important than the talent on the roster. Every single team has some sort of weakness due to the salary cap, can't blame lack of talent for big losses.
  18. MoneyFX

    MoneyFX Rookie

    Joined:
    May 26, 2009
    Messages:
    366
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    This is true. I was wondering why they didn't use Lloyd on more downfield routes. If the Patriots can add a physical Gronk-like specimen at the WR position (in other words, a receiver with size and can fight for the football) along with another guy with speed, this offense would be pretty much complete.
  19. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2006
    Messages:
    29,360
    Likes Received:
    46
    Ratings:
    +59 / 1 / -0

    I agree. First people say it is a deep threat. Now it is an intermediary threat. But it has always been a lack of a Gronk threat.

    Gronk, when healthy, is an once in a generation (or longer) type of player. There are few offensive players in the league that make as much of a difference on a team as him. Teams have to game plan him. He is virtually uncoverable and if you figure out a way, it usually means someone else is wide, wide open.

    People were lulled into believing losing Gronk wasn't a big deal because the Pats' offense is talented enough to be great without him. But he makes the offense special. Historically special.

    Forget the deep threat. Forget the intermediary threat. Bring back Gronk, keep him healthy, bring back Welker or replace him with a similar quality player, and fill in the depth of the WR position and this offense is fine.
  20. jnug

    jnug Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2012
    Messages:
    487
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    There are other pass receivers in the league that are dangerous in the way that Gronk is dangerous...none of them do it from the TE position. Just being a deep threat does not get it done. That was Randy Moss later in his career and we know how effective he became once he was truly on the back nine. We got to see the last of an effective Randy Moss and then we got to see the first of this version of Randy Moss.

    Gronk and receivers like him are dangerous because they are dangerous from anywhere on the field. If you let Gronk catch it short he is likely to take it to the house on you. If you let him get an advantage deep he is likely to go up over the guy defending him and take it to the house that way. So it is true that just being a deep threat does not get it done. Moss late in his career with the Pats could only get those long legs stretched out and the defender could not let Moss get behind him. But anything in front of the defender and Moss really wasn't going anywhere. The Moss arsenal had been stripped down to the post route and that was about it.

    Lloyd is not a bad receiver. I just don't think we were expecting his total arsenal to consist of catching the ball on the way to the ground. Unless the Pats really spend a fortune on somebody you have to expect a guy that is a threat all over the field to have some flaws. Maybe he drops the ball. Maybe he can't block his way out of a paper bag....something.
  21. ALP

    ALP Rookie

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2007
    Messages:
    7,401
    Likes Received:
    7
    Ratings:
    +7 / 0 / -0

    why is Gronk so special though? I do not think anyone is arguing that he is not...and i believe the reason he is is because the guy attacks (and is allowed to attack, and has routes made for him that attack) the 15-30 yd range

    he is special because as good as welker is in the 4-10yd range, thats how good Gronk is in the 15-30 yd range, namely unstoppable

    if Gronk instead attacked the 4-10yd range, we would be having the same prob in the passing game as we did against Balt, the fact that we have an amazing intermediate weapon changes this

    however you do not need to have only the best option in the league in the 15-30 yd range in order to attack that space, you can attack it w/ lesser players, the success will be lower, but you must still attack that portion on the field, and not simply ignore it and live off of the 10yds after the line of scrimmage
  22. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2006
    Messages:
    40,774
    Likes Received:
    65
    Ratings:
    +90 / 3 / -1

    Disable Jersey

    is its inability to be fully healthy when facing top teams in the playoffs.

    2007 - Brady injured
    2009 - Welker out
    2011 - Gronk hobbled
    2012 - Gronk out

    The team transitioned to an offensive juggernaut after 2006. Since that time, there's only been one playoff season where the offense was healthy, and that was the 2010 season. .
  23. Koma

    Koma Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2008
    Messages:
    839
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    The thing that puzzled me with the offense is that there were 3 or 4 occasions against Baltimore where Brady evaded the rush, moved around in the pocket, had between 5-7 seconds to throw and couldn't find anyone open.

    When a QB is in this situation against the Patriots defense (I've seen this in other games, as well), they often end up throwing to a receiver who the defense lost track of and is wide open.

    The same thing happened against the Jets in 2010. I'm not sure how a situation that usually turns into a huge advantage for the offense is a dead end for the Patriots, at least in the playoffs.
  24. jnug

    jnug Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2012
    Messages:
    487
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    I think that Brady is such a student of the game that instead of letting the play develop and taking a shot, stuck in his head is "do not throw the ball late over the middle" and he hesitates. One of the writers wrote about that exact play and claimed that Hernandez and somebody else, Lloyd I think were both open on the play and Brady did not pull the trigger.
  25. andrewgarrr

    andrewgarrr Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2010
    Messages:
    2,149
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    This. End thread please. :)
  26. jnug

    jnug Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2012
    Messages:
    487
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    Injuries injuries...pretty obvious why some in the NFL want an 18 game regular season but ya' have to wonder how deep on the depth chart teams would have to go in the post season after 18 regular season games.
  27. BoTown

    BoTown Rookie

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2005
    Messages:
    3,586
    Likes Received:
    4
    Ratings:
    +4 / 0 / -0

    I think a big problem (maybe not the biggest, but still big) is the Patriots' inability to successfully develop homegrown wide receivers over the years. Not tight ends, mind you... wide receivers.

    Victor Cruz, Hakeem Nicks, Mario Manningham
    Greg Jennings, Jordy Nelson, Donald Driver, James Jones
    Marques Colston, Devery Henderson, Robert Meachem
    Hines Ward, Santonio Holmes, Nate Washington
    Amani Toomer
    Reggie Wayne, Marvin Harrison
    Hines Ward, Antwaan Randle-El
    Deion Branch, David Givens, Troy Brown

    These are all the homegrown WR's on teams who won the Super Bowl dating back to the Patriots' last SB title. Only the 2007 Giants had minimal impact, and only because I didn't include career scrub David Tyree who made his biggest impact on one lucky catch.

    I get that this is all revisionist history, but wouldn't it have been great if the Pats could have gotten Jennings or Brandon Marshall or Colston instead of wasting it on Chad Jackson? Or Mike Wallace instead of Brandon Tate? Or Antonio Brown instead of Taylor Price? The only homegrown WR the Pats had with some success is Julian Edelman, who they converted from QB to WR and he couldn't stay on the field long enough. If the Pats had the WR depth of the Packers for the last few years, on top of the two TE's to cause mismatches for opposing defenses, they would be unstoppable. But now the key is to jam the middle and force the Pats to make plays on the outside. The Pats don't have that WR and haven't since Moss was traded.

    I think a bigger issue with the team overall is defensive toughness (which was a key difference in the SB winning Pats and the Pats we have had since then), and the biggest issue has been bad luck with injuries to key players often at the worst possible time, but since this thread is about the passing attack, I think the lack of continuity is a problem. We are a team in need of young, but experienced impact WR's, and you have to develop those unless you want to overpay in free agency or trade.
  28. DarrylStingley

    DarrylStingley Rookie

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2008
    Messages:
    674
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    Health has been a huge problem.

    But to me, you really cannot control that and it's almost not worth discussing. They need to do what they can to keep guys on the field.

    Regarding the field, it's more the lack of outside receivers than intermediate routes. I agree that they need to hit on more passes past 10 yards and it was maddening to see so many 8-yard plays on first down this past game.

    But the Ravens and NY Giants both crammed the middle and dared to beat them on the outside, and the Pats were unable to do that in both of their last season ending games.

    Mangini and Troy talked about this in an interview on Mut & Merloni this week that I'd recommend people listen to.
  29. Nordberg

    Nordberg Rookie

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2007
    Messages:
    818
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0

    Game planning vs the Patriots offense

    HC: Have you had a chance to take a look at the Patriots offense yet?

    DC: Yea......we only have to cover 10 yards off the line of scrimmage.

    HC: You mean with DL & LB's?

    DC: No.....with everybody.

    HC: What if they take a shot downfield?

    DC: The only time they go downfield is with their slot receiver.

    HC: Well then.....we still have to watch out for that.

    DC: Umm......not really

    HC: Why?

    DC: He's all of 5'7 and not very fast. The QB will have to make a perfect throw every time.

    HC: O.K.....let's play nickle and dime all game and flood the first 10 yards off the line of scimmage.
  30. ALP

    ALP Rookie

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2007
    Messages:
    7,401
    Likes Received:
    7
    Ratings:
    +7 / 0 / -0

    EXACTLY the point

    but the reason we dont attack past 10 yds isnt talent, its mentality
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page