the BEST patriot player in our history ?

[shakadave]

Too hard to rank the top five or ten, but let me mention Tony Eason is at #19. Rodney Harrison around #4. Bruschi around #5. Craig James #22. Don Blackmon #24.

 

[RayClay]

I go all the way back to the beginning of the Patriots. I saw Gino Capelletti and Babe Parilli and Jim Nance and Jim Colclough play. Of course I saw Hannah play, and not just on film, in person. And yes, I disagree. OK?

Fair enough, but would you agree that he was the dominant player on those teams even though he was a guard?

I just think that people tend to totally underestimate the great players that played before 2001 because the management was in such turmoil those teams didn't finish off seasons like the present team does.

You have to admit, (maybe not), that Belichick's coaching and veteran acquisitions had as much or more to do with the 2001 season as Brady did.

No doubt Brady's final drive in the Super Bowl stands alone, however.

 

[BruschiOnTap]

I'm not sure he was the greatest, but I'd like to mention the name of Andre Tippett, the ultimate "edge rusher".

I was waiting for someone to say that...

 

[mgteich]

If QB's are so much more important, then there should be two classes of MVP's and top players, quarterbacks and non-quarterbacks.

If all that counts is the quarterbacks that win Super Bowls, then just use that stat.

Perhaps Super Bowl MVP's is tha stat you like.

For me, there is no question that Hannah is the best patriot of all time, by far. He was the MVP.

Yes, Brady was the MVP in 2001. Why isn't Branch on the list?

My list
Hannah
Haynes
Tippett

 

[A.C Vegas]

how about instead of the best player ever how about hte best at easch postion ever I think that would be a great debate and see if you could put together a great 53 man roster.

on another topic (sort of) how do you think the "greatest" Pats team would fair against the other "greatest" teams

 

[RayClay]

how about instead of the best player ever how about hte best at easch postion ever I think that would be a great debate and see if you could put together a great 53 man roster.

on another topic (sort of) how do you think the "greatest" Pats team would fair against the other "greatest" teams

Actually, the Patriots have had some great players in every area.

Their awful seasons were more the product of owner management meltdowns than a slow erosion of talent.

Their original 60's team was very competitive with a great defensive line, solid QB and top RB until he got too fat.

Their mid 70's team might have been their most talented, (hard to compare over eras) but a tough call and a defecting coach did them in.

Their 85 team had an unbelievable run in the playoffs but ran into a buzzsaw in the SB.

Between and after, they had some of the worst teams and most pitiful coaching situations imaginable, coupled with horrible drafts because Sullivan didn't have money to pay top picks.

 

[Chevy]

I think it has to be Hog Hannah. While Brady is considered one of the best QB's to play the game, Hannah is considered by many to be THE best offensive lineman to play the game - and without a doubt the best guard to ever play.

As far as getting into the HoF ... 32 starting QB's (a sexy position) vs 64 starting OG's (a position very much under the radar). It takes a lot more for a guard's name to be recognized than any QB's, and Hannah's is known around the nation.

I think the top 3 for New England, based on talent and what they meant to the postion:

1. John Hannah - perfect technique and a killer mean streak

2. Andre Tippet - L.T.'s equal in the pass rush without being a liability against the run.

3. Tom Brady - proves that effort = success. Improves every season, is a selfless leader, can through short-intermediate-long with equal success.

Why is Brady third? Hannah and Tippet redefined their positions (Hannah showed that lineman could attack like their defensive counterparts, Tippet showed you could be a terror to QB's and running backs alike), Brady hasn't brought anything new to the table. This is not a knock on him - he's showed that a Qb can learn to function in any system (he's seen flavors of the West Coast Offense, power run, Air Coryel, and most everything in between) while most QB's are successful in only one system, but he's not redefining the position as a whole. What he is doing is taking all the things a QB has to do, and doing them better than everyone else.

When he's done, Brady will most likely move to the #1 spot - but not yet.

 

[smg93]

I hate to break the illusion, but they did actually play for Super Bowls before 2001.

I swear, I remember.

Yes, but I swear, I remember that they only started winning Superbowls beginning in 2001

 

[RayClay]

Yes, but I swear, I remember that they only started winning Superbowls beginning in 2001

Once again, by they I meant the rest of footballdom. There was actually football competition before 2001, most of it not including us.:bricks: :bricks: :bricks:

 

[wistahpatsfan]

1. Hannah
2. Brady
3. Gino
4. Tippett
5. Cunningham

 

[Sean Pa Patriot]

Best Player in Pats history is hard to pick 1 but are

1 Tom Brady
2 John Hannah
3 Gino Cappaletti
4 Andre Tippett
5 Mike Haynes
5b - Stanley Morgan

honarble mention- Steve Grogan

 

[sarge]

For all those not picking Brady, I am curious.

Would any of you honestly be willing to trade Brady right now, for that player in his prime?

For me it is Brady, and it isn't even close after that.

 

[hallfamebrady]

It is Brady. No question.

Hannah does win a strong honorable mention. Could you imagine Hannah on the O - Line blocking for Brady

 

[shatch62]

Less Guards in the Hall than QBs

I understand the nostalgia of picking Hannah, but considering the facts of what it takes to be a HOF qb verses a HOF guard, there is absolutlely NO comparison!

I wonder how many Hannah backers remember when he went on his tirade against the team and was trying like hell to get traded anywhere!

If it is harder to be a hall of fame qb than why are there 3 times the QBs as G in the hall of fame? Per the hall's internet page there are only 6 pure Guards are in the Hall and only 1 – Mike Munchak – has been elected that started his career in 1980 or later.

Conversely there are 23 modern Era QBs that are in the Hall. Out of those 23, 6 - Troy Aikman, John Elway, Jim Kelly, Dan Marino, Warren Moon and Steve Young - began their careers in the 80’s. Montana just missed being a rookie in 79.

So, one could argue that it is MORE IMPRESSIVE to be a G in the Hall of Fame because it is an honor that is rarely given to that position.

 

[Joker]

Kenneth Sims....oh wait....

 

[sarge]

If it is harder to be a hall of fame qb than why are there 3 times the QBs as G in the hall of fame? Per the hall's internet page there are only 6 pure Guards are in the Hall and only 1 – Mike Munchak – has been elected that started his career in 1980 or later.

Conversely there are 23 modern Era QBs that are in the Hall. Out of those 23, 6 - Troy Aikman, John Elway, Jim Kelly, Dan Marino, Warren Moon and Steve Young - began their careers in the 80’s. Montana just missed being a rookie in 79.

So, one could argue that it is MORE IMPRESSIVE to be a G in the Hall of Fame because it is an honor that is rarely given to that position.

So you would feel comfortable with giving up Brady as he is now, for Hannah in his prime?

I think lack of guards in the HOF is due to the fact that it is possibly the least glamerous of offensive positions, while QB is the most glamerous position in the sport.

 

[ilduce06410]

hmmm. "best", not "most valuable". not "greatest."

Best Player in Pats history is hard to pick 1 but are
1 Tom Brady
2 John Hannah
3 Gino Cappaletti
4 Andre Tippett
5 Mike Haynes
5b - Stanley Morgan
honarble mention- Steve Grogan

'best" iis an interesting word. IMO it means "most proficient". to me, "greatest" means most frequently delivered inspirational and/or dominant performances in crucial situations. "most valuable" means greatest contributor to team successes.
my best take, definitely not perfect:
best: hannah, tippett, haynes, coates, francis, nelson, morgan , cappelletti
greatest: brady, hannah, troy brown, curtis martin, grogan
most valuable: brady, cappelletti, jim nance, martin, nelson, cappelletti

 

[PromisedLand]

Fair enough, but would you agree that he was the dominant player on those teams even though he was a guard?

I just think that people tend to totally underestimate the great players that played before 2001 because the management was in such turmoil those teams didn't finish off seasons like the present team does.

You have to admit, (maybe not), that Belichick's coaching and veteran acquisitions had as much or more to do with the 2001 season as Brady did.

No doubt Brady's final drive in the Super Bowl stands alone, however.

I do agree he was, relative to the contribution which can be made from his position, the best player on his team. He along with Leon Gray opened holes in the running which allowed the team to set the team rushing record.

However, several other outstanding players contributed to the success of the teams in the Hannah years (73-85): on offense, you had Sam "Bam", Stanley Morgan Russ Francis and Steve Grogan, and on defense you had Steve Nelson, Andre Tippett, Mike Haynes, Raymond Clayborn, Tim Fox, Julie Adams, etc. Furthermore, none of Hannah's teams won a Super Bowl, and ultimately the success of a player can only be measured by team success in a team game. (Please don't Ernie Banks/Ted Williams me.)

The quarterback position in football is possibly the most important position in all of team sports, with the exception of the goalie in ice hockey or soccer. Tom Brady not only led his team to three Super Bowls victories and was the MVP of two of them, but he raised the level of his play when his team most needed him: the last quarter and the overtime in the 2001 "Snow Bowl", the final drive in Super Bowls 36 and 38 (in which he set records for the most completions), etc. That to me is the true measure of greatness.

 

[ilduce06410]

certainly DO remember hannah's tirade

Sorry for the Hannah Backers, but lets get this Straight.
Hannah was the best linemen in Patriots history, and one of the best ever.
The talent level required to play guard verses QB, there is no comparison!
Easily Brady, and not even remotely close.
I understand the nostalgia of picking Hannah, but considering the facts of what it takes to be a HOF qb verses a HOF guard, there is absolutlely NO comparison!
I wonder how many Hannah backers remember when he went on his tirade against the team and was trying like hell to get traded anywhere!

i remember it well. i wonder if you remember it the same as i do.
hannah and a LT named Leon Gray, both established pro bowl players (gray-pro bowl, hannah-all-pro), made up one of the all time greatest LG/LT combos in nfl history. those two, opening holes for FB sam cunningham and others, were well nigh unstoppable.
for 2 years in a row, hannah and gray held out of TC together for bigger contracts. the patriots GM at that time Ernest 'Bucko' Kilroy, decided to send a message. he didn't dare do anything with hannah, but he did break up the tandem. kilroy traded leon gray, age 27, 2-time pro bowl LT, to the houston oilers for a 1st and a 6th round draft pick. the 1st round pick turned out to be vagas ferguson, a mediocre RB from Notre Dame.
most of patriot fandom was irate. hannah was beside himself for the next 1-3 years. gray was a key acquisition for th olers. he opened holes for earl campbell for the next 3 years. oilers were on national tv all the time, so it was like watching the "earl and leon show" on sundays for 3 years.
as i recall hannah said he'd never sign another contract with the patriots. he lambasted kilroy, the sullivans, the entir front offices for a deal that IMO was one of the worst trades made by any pro sports team in that decade,
a trade that also smacked of racism.
kilroy fanned the flames with comments about 'showing whos'e boss'.
so yeah, hannah went wild, said contemptous things about the patriots that i don't recall hearing any athlete say about his own franchise since then. well beyond T.O.'s sick B.S.
what the 'tirade' has to do with hannah's stature as a patriot, i don't know. but it was certainly a real thing. and it should be discussed in the proper context.

 

[sarge]

i remember it well. i wonder if you remember it the same as i do.
hannah and a LT named Leon Gray, both established pro bowl players (gray-pro bowl, hannah-all-pro), made up one of the all time greatest LG/LT combos in nfl history. those two, opening holes for FB sam cunningham and others, were well nigh unstoppable.
for 2 years in a row, hannah and gray held out of TC together for bigger contracts. the patriots GM at that time Ernest 'Bucko' Kilroy, decided to send a message. he didn't dare do anything with hannah, but he did break up the tandem. kilroy traded leon gray, age 27, 2-time pro bowl LT, to the houston oilers for a 1st and a 6th round draft pick. the 1st round pick turned out to be vagas ferguson, a mediocre RB from Notre Dame.
most of patriot fandom was irate. hannah was beside himself for the next 1-3 years. gray was a key acquisition for th olers. he opened holes for earl campbell for the next 3 years. oilers were on national tv all the time, so it was like watching the "earl and leon show" on sundays for 3 years.
as i recall hannah said he'd never sign another contract with the patriots. he lambasted kilroy, the sullivans, the entir front offices for a deal that IMO was one of the worst trades made by any pro sports team in that decade,
a trade that also smacked of racism.
kilroy fanned the flames with comments about 'showing whos'e boss'.
so yeah, hannah went wild, said contemptous things about the patriots that i don't recall hearing any athlete say about his own franchise since then. well beyond T.O.'s sick B.S.

And to read some, Hannah was solely responsible. I guess there actually were other players on that line.

what the 'tirade' has to do with hannah's stature as a patriot, i don't know. but it was certainly a real thing. and it should be discussed in the proper context.

A post I made later in this same thread.
http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showpost.php?p=97453&postcount=58

Hannah was great, but if we could go back to the 70's and 80's, I would have easily prefered Brady over Hannah. Let us not forget that Hannah really didn't want to be on this team either for a big stretch( I understand that should have no effect on his talent level)!

Yes, context is everything, isn'y it!

So you would trade Brady now for Hannah in his prime.