The BB drafts, summarized

[Leave No Doubt]

Moss was part of a draft move.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Are you seriously going to label the seventh round selection Matt Cassel "who was not a starter except when the guy ahead of him got injured"? Are you serious? A seventh round pick who stepped in when The Franchise went down and led the team to 11 wins and then netted the team the following offseason the 34th pick in the draft? I would say that Matt Cassel was one of the best picks of Belichick era based on value and return on investment. If you factor his draft position and what he gave the Pats, I would argue that Cassel was second to only Brady's pick. I give Belichick and Pioli an A+++ for the Cassel selection.

Let me take this one step further: Cassel would have been a great pick even if he had never started a game in New England.

Think about it: four years of competent back-up--good enough that BB felt he didn't even need a third QB in 2006--for less than one year of what the Lions are paying Daunte Culpepper.

 

[Fencer]

Let me take this one step further: Cassel would have been a great pick even if he had never started a game in New England.

Think about it: four years of competent back-up--good enough that BB felt he didn't even need a third QB in 2006--for less than one year of what the Lions are paying Daunte Culpepper.

Yep. A backup QB can be a serious contributor w/o getting on the field.

 

[JSn]

Yep. A backup QB can be a serious contributor w/o getting on the field.

And then you convert him into a #34 pick in 2009. Overall, not a bad find.

To summarize this thread though, pure comedy gold.

 

[Fencer]

So do you only judge a draft by the players drafted?

That, and the picks expended for them, although for extreme simplicity I left that part out of the original post.

Pick-for-pick trades are sort of a gray area -- they're clearly draft execution (draft-day negotiation, player evaluation).

Everything else is part of the offseason, but not the draft.

 

[Deus Irae]

Everything (almost) I said was correct. You misread it, argued with things I didn't say (I think that's the crux of the matter), and got so heated you said some factually incorrect things.

Hence my suggestion you cool down a bit.

Unfortunately, you just have chosen to continue to spew the -- inaccurate -- insults.

Can't you just apologize and back off?

I didn't misread anything. Did you actually even read the post? I know that you're a bit of a cry-baby, but this is ridiculous. These were the 'non-list' things I stated in that post:

This gets so very repetitive, so I'm not breaking down all of them. Here are two examples, though.....

2005 didn't produce "A Pro Bowler, 3 so-so starters, and Cassel". It Produced 5 starters in 7 picks.

No insult there, and nothing inaccurate.

It did that despite the team drafting last.

2007 didn't produce "A so-so starter, a contributor, and a bunch of washouts". It produced a group of players which contributed hugely to a 16-0 season.

Again, no insult there, and nothing inaccurate. In fact, it points out your omission of Moss and Welker without any kind or rancor, by just referring to "group of players". And, now, the final part...

And that was with 6 of the picks being 6th and 7th round picks trying to make what was an extremely deep team.

The drafts have been among the very best in the NFL.

Again, not an insult or sign of frothing to be seen. If someone needs a timeout, it's you.

 

[Fencer]

No insult there, and nothing inaccurate.

The word "didn't" was inaccurate. That's one word, but it's pretty basic. You drew a false contrast between what I said (wholly accurate) and what you said (reasonable, albeit less accurate), leading to the false claim that I was incorrect.

That you continue to defend your errors doesn't speak well of you.

Again, no insult there, and nothing inaccurate.

Ditto.

"lost their minds" and "terrible post" count as "frothing" in my book.

 

[Reaper]

Hey thanks for that link i have been wanting to look at the old draft picks from a while now.

 

[Fencer]

Hey thanks for that link i have been wanting to look at the old draft picks from a while now.

I found it through an article linked in another thread here.

 

[Deus Irae]

"lost their minds" and "terrible post" count as "frothing" in my book.

"lost their minds" and "terrible post" were AFTER that initial post. Also, if you consider them frothing, again, thanks for making my point about you being a cry-baby.

Also, the word "didn't" was not inaccurate at all. You evaluated the players as "so-so", etc... That's nothing more than your opinion. It's not a fact. I corrected that by removing it.

 

[Patsrock]

That, and the picks expended for them, although for extreme simplicity I left that part out of the original post.

Pick-for-pick trades are sort of a gray area -- they're clearly draft execution (draft-day negotiation, player evaluation).

Everything else is part of the offseason, but not the draft.

Not true! Here is a great draft.

In 2007 this is what the Pats got out of the Draft

drafted Merriweather(with the Pick from Seattle for Deion Branch)

traded 1st rd # 28 pick to SF for their 2008 # 1 (turned into Mayo) and 4th rd #110

traded 2nd rd #60 and 7th rd #238 to Miami for Wes Welker

traded 4th rd pick #110(got from SF in earlier trade to Oakland for Randy Moss

traded 3rd rd #91 to Oakland for 7th rd and 3rd rd pick in 2008. (Have traded 3 RD pick to SD for their 2nd rd pick this year #47 overall)


If you look at 2000 draft the only "player" they got was Tom Brady btw that one pick makes that draft an A, but add in the 1st rd pick for BB and you get a A++.

 

[Patsrock]

Hey thanks for that link i have been wanting to look at the old draft picks from a while now.

This one is better and much more detail. You can go between the draft and trades. I linked all the BB drafts here


2000
Official New England Patriots - History - All-Time Draft/Trade

2001
Official New England Patriots - History - All-Time Draft/Trade

2002
Official New England Patriots - History - All-Time Draft/Trade

2003
Official New England Patriots - History - All-Time Draft/Trade

2004
Official New England Patriots - History - All-Time Draft/Trade

2005
Official New England Patriots - History - All-Time Draft/Trade

2006
Official New England Patriots - History - All-Time Draft/Trade

2007
Official New England Patriots - History - All-Time Draft/Trade

2008
Official New England Patriots - History - All-Time Draft/Trade

 

[Fencer]

Not true!

I meant that they're a gray area as to whether they should be counted as part of the draft.

I certainly don't favor double counting, as in "Traded for a 1st round pick that became Mayo. Great! The next year, drafted Mayo. Great!" Mayo only contributed to one draft year, not two.

 

[Patsrock]

I meant that they're a gray area as to whether they should be counted as part of the draft.

I certainly don't favor double counting, as in "Traded for a 1st round pick that became Mayo. Great! The next year, drafted Mayo. Great!" Mayo only contributed to one draft year, not two.

Why is it a gray area. Those are all moves you made within the frame work of the draft. And yes one years draft moves directly influences your next years draft.

 

[JoeSixPat]

NFL Draft History: Full Draft - by Team has a convenient draft history.

2000 Brady, a couple of short-term starters or contributors, and a bunch of washouts

2001 One borderline HOFer, one borderline Pro Bowler, one borderline starter, and a bunch of washouts

2002 Three starters -- two of whom have minor places in the record books -- a starter-equivalent DL, a backup QB, and a washout

2003 Three Pro Bowlers or borderline Pro Bowlers, another starter

2004 A Pro Bowler, a so-so starter, and a lot of washouts

2005 A Pro Bowler, 3 so-so starters, and Cassel

2006 A Pro Bowl kicker, 2 borderline starters, and a couple of minor contributors

2007 A so-so starter, a contributor, and a bunch of washouts

2008 A DROY and a bunch of remains-to-be-seens

Overall I don't think you give enough credit to the quality role players and backups that Belichick has drafted.... quality middle class talent and depth is what often has carried this team through to Super Bowls, even though we always focus on the "big" name players and starters.

There's a lot of players, particularly in the 2005 draft and before, who have really been strategic, if not "big" contributors to the success of the team.

That's not something I see on the 2006 and 2007 drafts - though I have every hope and expectation we'll see some quality from the 2008 draft (and of course the 2009!)

 

[Patsrock]

Here is my take on the BB era drafts

Great Picks
Brady, Seymour, Wilfork, Warren, Samuel, Koppen, Mankins, Cassel, Gostkowski.

Good to Great Picks
Branch, Light, Green

Good Picks
Givens, Wilson, Watson,Graham,Hobbs,Kaczur and J.Sanders

Serviceable
Redmon, Robinson-Randall, A.Harris, and Patrick Pass

Still to early to judge
Mayo and Merriweather. One more year like this year and Mayo moves to great pick.

Now to the trades.

A 1st for BB(the one that starts it all, yeah I know BB didn't trade it but was a part of it)
1st for Bledsoe(drafted Ty Warren)
1st for Branch(drafted Meriweather)
1st in 2003 for 1st in 2004 and 2003 2nd(Drafted Wilfork in 04 and the 2nd in 03 helped get Wilson)
2nd for Dillon
4th for Moss
2nd and 7th for Welker
1st(#28 in 2007 for 2008 1st rd)(led to Mayo)
Terry Glenn for 2 4th rd picks(Jarvis Green)and helped land Samuel in 2003 draft.
Traded 2003 3rd pick to Miami for 2004 2nd rd pick(later traded to Cincy for Dillon)
Traded Tebucky for a 3rd(traded to Miami) and 7th in 2003 and a 4th in 2004
Traded a 4th rd pick for Ted Washington

 

[JackBauer]

Here is my take on the BB era drafts

Great Picks
Brady, Seymour, Wilfork, Warren, Samuel, Koppen, Mankins, Cassel, Gostkowski.

Good to Great Picks
Branch, Light, Green

Good Picks
Givens, Wilson, Watson,Graham,Hobbs,Kaczur and J.Sanders

Serviceable
Redmon, Robinson-Randall, A.Harris, and Patrick Pass

Still to early to judge
Mayo and Merriweather. One more year like this year and Mayo moves to great pick.

Now to the trades.

A 1st for BB(the one that starts it all, yeah I know BB didn't trade it but was a part of it)
1st for Bledsoe(drafted Ty Warren)
1st for Branch(drafted Meriweather)
1st in 2003 for 1st in 2004 and 2003 2nd(Drafted Wilfork in 04 and the 2nd in 03 helped get Wilson)
2nd for Dillon
4th for Moss
2nd and 7th for Welker
1st(#28 in 2007 for 2008 1st rd)(led to Mayo)
Terry Glenn for 2 4th rd picks(Jarvis Green)and helped land Samuel in 2003 draft.
Traded 2003 3rd pick to Miami for 2004 2nd rd pick(later traded to Cincy for Dillon)
Traded Tebucky for a 3rd(traded to Miami) and 7th in 2003 and a 4th in 2004

Meriweather is not "too soon to judge."

He's a baller, straight up yo.

 

[Michigan Dave]

Meriweather is not "too soon to judge."

He's a baller, straight up yo.

I agree. I think he's going to really come into his own this year given what we saw at the end of 2008.

Back to the OP, I think most of what I would say has already been said. I'm pretty damn satisfied with how we draft. Moreso, I like how draft picks are treated as assets and valued accordingly, which is why moves netting Welker, Moss, Mayo, etc. should absolutely be considered in overall evaluation.

 

[Fencer]

Why is it a gray area. Those are all moves you made within the frame work of the draft. And yes one years draft moves directly influences your next years draft.

Picking a player and trading a pick aren't the same thing.

 

[Fencer]

Overall I don't think you give enough credit to the quality role players and backups that Belichick has drafted.... quality middle class talent and depth is what often has carried this team through to Super Bowls, even though we always focus on the "big" name players and starters.

Who do you count as middle-class talent that the Pats drafted? Who do you count as middle-class talent that came in in other ways?

Everybody's definition of the term differs a bit, but I'd guess you'll find only a minority was drafted.

If you add draftees, UDFAs, and young players who arrived after not accomplishing anything for the teams that drafted them, then you'd have a pretty awesome list. But if you look just at the use of picks, I don't think I was understating it in my references to starters, contributors, backup QBs, and so on.