The #1 draft need is likely to be DL

[Ochmed Jones]

I still think BB is trading out of the first round this year unless Barrett Jones is available. He is perfect for our club.

a.) He does not have a 4th, 5th or 6th
b.) The talent spread from #25 to #50 is very tight.
c.) the value picks are in the second round.

Hard to see another team paying top dollar for Vollmer given his creaky back and injury history.

The development of Bray and Wilson throughout the draft process will determine how much return BB gets for our #32 pick.

Fisher is legit at either OT position. But he lacks a big school label so I am not sure if BB would consider him in the first. Look at the DL player Fluker and Jones of Alabama have lined up against vs. what Fisher has played against and it is easy to see why BB prefer big school kids.

The WR from VW is amazing and really quick. Would BB see him as a replacement for Welker?

 

[captain stone]

I agree with Och's take re Vollmer. I would be very, very careful before committing multiple years
& big bucks to him. 3 years, modest signing bonus, and a salary tied strongly to games played
would be my limit.

And yes, drafting/developing ONE decent WR in the last 10 years is indeed inexcusable.

 

[manxman2601]

I've been thinking about 2 very good current NFL players who were DEs coming out of college but who have bulked up and play very different roles from what they play in college: Justin Smith and Henry Melton.

Smith was a 267# pass rushing 4-3 DE coming out of Missouri. He did OK in that role for Cincinnati, but was never really dominant until he bulked up and became a hybrid tackle/end for San Francisco, where he is one of the best linemen in the NFL. While JJ Watt has put up bigger numbers, Smith may have as big an impact on San Francisco's defense, as his absence the past game and a half have shown.

Melton was a running back for Texas who was converted to DE, and was also aruond 267# when he came out. He's now around 295# and is one of the better penetrating DTs in the NFL, and a 2 time Pro Bowl player.

I wonder who could have that kind of projection who is currently draft eligible. Ziggy Ansah's an athletic freak all to himself. But the 2 guys who come to mind are Sam Montgomery of LSU and Trent Murphy of Stanford. Montgomery's around 6'5" 260# this year having bulked up. He doesn't have an elite first step but he's got good hand technique and is very physical, with a good motor. Murphy's around 6'6" and 260-265# and currently plays OLB, but is a physical brute with the frame to add another 20+ lbs. Both of those guys look line linemen to me, probably playing mostly on the strong side, and guys who could get bigger and stronger in the pros.

William Gholston?


Mike Catapano (Princeton)

Margus Hunt seems like the obvious one.

 

[mayoclinic]

William Gholston?

Mike Catapano (Princeton)

Margus Hunt seems like the obvious one.

I was wondering when Catapano was going to get mentioned. He's an interesting late round/UDFA guy. Haven't been able to see enough of him, but he's supposedly fairly athletic.

I didn't include Hunt and Gholston mainly because I don't really see them bulking up and getting bigger - they're already huge. Devin Taylor might be worth including, but I'm not sure he's physical enough. All worth considering, though.

 

[manxman2601]

I was wondering when Catapano was going to get mentioned. He's an interesting late round/UDFA guy. Haven't been able to see enough of him, but he's supposedly fairly athletic.

I didn't include Hunt and Gholston mainly because I don't really see them bulking up and getting bigger - they're already huge. Devin Taylor might be worth including, but I'm not sure he's physical enough. All worth considering, though.

Been watching Catapano of late. Impressive. Very fast off the snap, nice bend around the OT, decent flexibility. Might be the guy we hoped Bequette would be. Apparently he lost 20 lbs in the off-season so that he could play at DE. So the ability to add weight is clearly there.

 

[mayoclinic]

Been watching Catapano of late. Impressive. Very fast off the snap, nice bend around the OT, decent flexibility. Might be the guy we hoped Bequette would be. Apparently he lost 20 lbs in the off-season so that he could play at DE. So the ability to add weight is clearly there.

Yeah, I heard he got down from 290# to around 270=275#. Also that he supposedly runs around a 4.65-4.7 40. I believe he got a Shrine Game invite. I lump him in with David Bass as a day 3 guy of interest.

 

[patsinthesnow]

Well, my first post in here as the regular season winds down. From now til the draft everyone will argue for defense with the late (hopefully 32nd ) 1st round pick, but I hope the Pats finally pull the trigger on a 1st round WR.

Demaryius Thomas:

1st year: 22 receptions 283 yards 2 TDs
2nd year: 32 receptions 551 yards 4 TDs
3rd year: 87 receptions 1,312 yards 9 TDs

Dez Bryant:

1st year: 45 receptions 561 yards 6 TDs
2nd year: 63 receptions 928 yards 9 TDs
3rd year: 88 receptions 1,311 yards 12 TDs

-There are snaps to be had in this offense as a 3rd WR. Let whoever the kid is develop his rookie year, taking the snaps Edelman/Branch/Stallworth had this year.
-In 3 years Lloyd and Welker will both be 34, and most likely their playing days will be toast. This kid in year 3 could step up like Demaryius/Dez have and be a legit #1 WR.

 

[Merril Hoge's Tie Knot]

I've been thinking about 2 very good current NFL players who were DEs coming out of college but who have bulked up and play very different roles from what they play in college: Justin Smith and Henry Melton.

Smith was a 267# pass rushing 4-3 DE coming out of Missouri. He did OK in that role for Cincinnati, but was never really dominant until he bulked up and became a hybrid tackle/end for San Francisco, where he is one of the best linemen in the NFL. While JJ Watt has put up bigger numbers, Smith may have as big an impact on San Francisco's defense, as his absence the past game and a half have shown.

Melton was a running back for Texas who was converted to DE, and was also aruond 267# when he came out. He's now around 295# and is one of the better penetrating DTs in the NFL, and a 2 time Pro Bowl player.

I wonder who could have that kind of projection who is currently draft eligible. Ziggy Ansah's an athletic freak all to himself. But the 2 guys who come to mind are Sam Montgomery of LSU and Trent Murphy of Stanford. Montgomery's around 6'5" 260# this year having bulked up. He doesn't have an elite first step but he's got good hand technique and is very physical, with a good motor. Murphy's around 6'6" and 260-265# and currently plays OLB, but is a physical brute with the frame to add another 20+ lbs. Both of those guys look line linemen to me, probably playing mostly on the strong side, and guys who could get bigger and stronger in the pros.

It's hard to draft players with a different position in mind for them because it can take time to learn the new position and adjust their body to be more effective at the new position.

I was watching tape of NC State @ Clemson a while ago and I felt like Malliciah Goodman was playing out of position. Here's what I wrote:

"Malliciah Goodman is unlikely to be a good edge rusher in the NFL. He's not quick or flexible enough to bend the edge. However he is listed at 280 pounds and his arms are huge. He has those arms that hang almost to the knees, like Chandler Jones. I think if he stopped playing out of position, and got bigger and stronger, he could develop into an effective 5/3-tech. He'd have to add about 15 pounds at least. He could 1-gap DE in a 3-4 right now, but the Patriots don’t do any of that."

Also, while you're thinking about players that have morphed into effective grizzlies, there are other positions that can be converted too. Undersized DEs into linebackers (like Bruschi) and big zone CBs into safeties are the first conversions that come to mind. Have anyone like that in mind?

 

[mayoclinic]

While you're thinking about players that have morphed into effective grizzlies, there are other positions that can be converted too. Undersized DEs into linebackers (like Bruschi) and big zone CBs into safeties are the first conversions that come to mind. Have anyone like that in mind?

I haven't thought about the DE to OLB conversion, because I don't see us playing a pure 3-4, and because we're pretty well stocked. I see more of a need for coverage LBs than DE/LB hybrids right now. But I'll think about it.

As for the CB/S, I've always loved that conversion. Trumaine Johnson and Brandon Hardin were guys I had my eye on last year. As for this year, we've already mentioned Jamar Taylor in the Secondary Help and Draft Prospects thread. David Amerson is probably the poster-boy for this conversion, though he'll go too high for my taste. His teammate Dontae Johnson (6'3" 196#) is only a junior and probably won't come out this year, but played safety last year and was switched to boundary CB this year. Sanders Commings of Georgia is interesting and has some experience at both FS and SS, though he has some off-field issues.

 

[kennyb]

I agree with Och's take re Vollmer. I would be very, very careful before committing multiple years
& big bucks to him. 3 years, modest signing bonus, and a salary tied strongly to games played
would be my limit.

And yes, drafting/developing ONE decent WR in the last 10 years is indeed inexcusable.

Yes, I agree withi you, but the problem is that he's likely to get good FA money. What's the going rate on a guy who can play left tackle? 8M a year? He has a bad back...so it's a catch 22...if his back is OK, then he'll be priced out of the patriots and if it's not ok, then why do they want him?


They need a guy who can step in for vollmer as he's most likely gone. Maybe Cannon can. THey need interior help too. connelly has a bad back and mankins is getting chronically injured now that he has a huge contract and is getting old.

DL they've plugged in deaderick, francis, trevor scott, myron pryor and love. All late round picks or cheap FA signings. They apparently have good talent evaluation at DL (except for the painful 2nd round bust from bc). It would be nice to get a wilfork type, but that isn't realistic. early DL bust all the time.

 

[mayoclinic]

Well, my first post in here as the regular season winds down. From now til the draft everyone will argue for defense with the late (hopefully 32nd ) 1st round pick, but I hope the Pats finally pull the trigger on a 1st round WR.

Demaryius Thomas:

1st year: 22 receptions 283 yards 2 TDs
2nd year: 32 receptions 551 yards 4 TDs
3rd year: 87 receptions 1,312 yards 9 TDs

Dez Bryant:

1st year: 45 receptions 561 yards 6 TDs
2nd year: 63 receptions 928 yards 9 TDs
3rd year: 88 receptions 1,311 yards 12 TDs

-There are snaps to be had in this offense as a 3rd WR. Let whoever the kid is develop his rookie year, taking the snaps Edelman/Branch/Stallworth had this year.
-In 3 years Lloyd and Welker will both be 34, and most likely their playing days will be toast. This kid in year 3 could step up like Demaryius/Dez have and be a legit #1 WR.

Eric Decker (3rd round):

1st year (6 games, 0 start): 6 receptions, 106 yards, 1 TD
2nd year (16 games, 13 starts): 44 receptions, 612 yards, 8 TDs
3rd year (15 games so far, 14 starts): 78 receptions, 988 yards, 11 TDs

Going from Tim Tebow to Peyton Manning between the 2nd and 3rd year clearly is helpful to the development of a young WR.

The last WR that the Patriots drafted and actually developed (used as a regular part of their rotation and stuck with) was Deion Branch in 2002. They haven't shown a lot of patience with young receivers. Edelman's been a backup, so he hasn't been forced into action. But the team pretty much cut bait on Bethel Johnson, PK Sam, Chad Jackson, Brandon Tate and Taylor Price all within 2 years. That's a tough way to go when it often takes 3 years for players to really develop.

 

[Merril Hoge's Tie Knot]

I haven't thought about the DE to OLB conversion, because I don't see us playing a pure 3-4, and because we're pretty well stocked. I see more of a need for coverage LBs than DE/LB hybrids right now. But I'll think about it.

Actually I was thinking about 4-3 backers. Bruschi played a 3-4 but could have played in a 4-3 too.

As for the CB/S, I've always loved that conversion. Trumaine Johnson and Brandon Hardin were guys I had my eye on last year. As for this year, we've already mentioned Jamar Taylor in the Secondary Help and Draft Prospects thread. David Amerson is probably the poster-boy for this conversion, though he'll go too high for my taste. His teammate Dontae Johnson (6'3" 196#) is only a junior and probably won't come out this year, but played safety last year and was switched to boundary CB this year. Sanders Commings of Georgia is interesting and has some experience at both FS and SS, though he has some off-field issues.

Yeah I need to check out Taylor. I think I have a Boise game recorded.

I've heard Amerson. He's the poster boy, but I wonder if he wouldn't benefit just as much from a scheme change. He shouldn't be playing 10 yards off with his length. He should be playing press IMO. Physically he looks just like Asomugha who can only play press. Amerson might be too tight, but I'm not sure, I haven't scouted him yet. I only scouted Clemson in the NC State game so far. I've been wondering if he'd be worth a shot in the third round.

Commings would be interesting. Questionable speed and character though (domestic battery.)

 

[captain stone]

Been watching Catapano of late. Impressive. Very fast off the snap, nice bend around the OT, decent flexibility. Might be the guy we hoped Bequette would be. Apparently he lost 20 lbs in the off-season so that he could play at DE. So the ability to add weight is clearly there.

Why exactly isn't Bequette the guy we'd hoped he would be? I never considered him a top-100 talent
anyway (I thought his value began in the middle/late 4th), so is it simply a matter of his just not being
very good in spite of his sack #s in college, or is there something more at play here, such as lack of
football IQ, coachability, non-athleticism etc? Justin Francis does too many stupid things too often for
my liking, so Bequette's inability to crack the sub rotation is doubly disappointing.

 

[manxman2601]

Why exactly isn't Bequette the guy we'd hoped he would be? I never considered him a top-100 talent
anyway (I thought his value began in the middle/late 4th), so is it simply a matter of his just not being
very good in spite of his sack #s in college, or is there something more at play here, such as lack of
football IQ, coachability, non-athleticism etc? Justin Francis does too many stupid things too often for
my liking, so Bequette's inability to crack the sub rotation is doubly disappointing.

Funny you mention that because I came in to post this:

Compare and Contrast:

Mike Catapano, Princeton, DE

Mike Catapano vs Penn (2012) - YouTube


Jake Bequette, Arkansas, DE

Jake Bequette vs Ole Miss 2011 - YouTube


I actually think Catapano is much the better player. Much more explosive off the snap whilst Bequette looks slow and cumbersome in contrast. Bequette looks more solidly built and might stack up against the run better (bigger butt!) but Catapano displays plenty of strength (regularly taking on double teams). It's not quite so apparent on this video, but Catapano also bends around the edge much better than Bequette.

I like Catapano. He's a two time captain at Princeton and I like his explosiveness for a big guy. Nink's contract comes to an end in 2014. Perhaps Bequette v Catapano would be a worthy battle to find a possible successor.

Edit:

I was watching the Georgetown game and Princeton's Caraun Reed (DE/DT, 6'2" 292) stood out. Thankfully his performance is available on Youtube. Catapano is #77:

http://youtu.be/igeMVgO5CLw

A couple of nice late round options that fit our needs nicely.

Edit x2:

Another Caraun Reed vid:

http://youtu.be/7kq_uCXs8K0

From the commentary:

" I'll be honest with you, he has no business being in the Ivy league period. This guy looks like an Alabama/LSU defensive..."

Whilst I like them both, I'm starting to like Reed better and think he has a better chance to fit with the Pats.

 

[manxman2601]

Actually I was thinking about 4-3 backers. Bruschi played a 3-4 but could have played in a 4-3 too.



Yeah I need to check out Taylor. I think I have a Boise game recorded.

I've heard Amerson. He's the poster boy, but I wonder if he wouldn't benefit just as much from a scheme change. He shouldn't be playing 10 yards off with his length. He should be playing press IMO. Physically he looks just like Asomugha who can only play press. Amerson might be too tight, but I'm not sure, I haven't scouted him yet. I only scouted Clemson in the NC State game so far. I've been wondering if he'd be worth a shot in the third round.

Commings would be interesting. Questionable speed and character though (domestic battery.)

As a DE to LB conversion, how about John Simon? Doesn't have the flexibility to play 4-3 LB comfortably but I think he'd make a good 3-4 MLB. Has the strength to fight off blockers, would be an awesome blitzer and is relentless. I wouldn't draft him day two for that role, but if in a hypothetical scenario we switched back to a 3-4 and had no intention of re-signing Spikes I'd do that on day 3. Let him play special teams and back up Mayo-Hightower. Of course that's purely hypothetical.

As for CB to Safety conversions, this screams Amerson. Still think Dre Kirkatrick last year was perfect for that switch.

 

[EwanSellars]

i like catapano and reed both seemed like they were by far the 2 best players on the field wouldnt mind either