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Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Turk, Jul 28, 2006.

  1. Turk

    Turk Rookie

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  2. ELOrocks17

    ELOrocks17 Guest

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    You gotta be sh*ttin me! Save the Lebanese from Israel? bullsh*t! Hey Lebanon...you made your frickin bed..now lie in it!
  3. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    We who oppose war have seen photos like this and have heard the warnings of old warriors who warn us of man's evil to their fellow man. Israel is in the sewer with the rest of the animals in the Middle East. There may not be a hell, but we make our own hell by our inability to live in peace. Hezbollah may have started this by capturing - not kidnapping! - those Israeli soldiers, but the response has been extremely violent and wreckless in proportion. Lobbing bombs into civilian areas makes them the same as Hezbollah, no better. I can't wait until we get some leaders who give Israel everything they provide for us in return - nothing.
  4. gomezcat

    gomezcat It's SIR Moderator to you Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I'd like to return the thanks to the extremists who blew themselves up on the Underground a year ago. I'd personally like to say thanks, face to face, to anyone who helped them.

    That said, it seems that the morons on both sides are content to get off on killing civilians.
  5. Turk

    Turk Rookie

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    Well said, WPF.
    State sponsored or not, terrorism is just that, terrorism.
    Hezbollah's terrorists and / or Israeli soldiers killing children, are equally guilty of the same terrible crimes.
    One point that I disagree with you on though is that Israel does provide us with the hatred of the Muslim world because we are her partners dragged into these crimes against humanity.
  6. QuiGon

    QuiGon Banned

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    There's a key point you people are missing. Hezbollah deliberately targets civilians areas (since they know they could never stand up to the Israeli military) and then they hide in civilian areas, leaving Israel with no choice but to retaliate.

    Then weak minded fools see moral equality in Israel's actions versus the Hezbollah - and the Hezbollah laughs all the way to their rocket launchers.
  7. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    In this particular go round there is no moral equalivance. Hezbollah (and Hamas) picked the fight this go round. Ever since Israel evacuated Gaza the Hamas elements have been firing rockets at Israeli civilians. Then Hezbollah go into the act kidnaping the 2 soldiers and starting their attacks. If the Lebanese wanted to protect civilians in their country they should have demanded that Hexbollah cease their attacks and return these soldiers.

    They didn't and now they are reaoing the whirlwind. What is the responsibility of Iran and Syria and this, especially Iran with their interest in diverting attention from their nuke weapons program.
  8. Turk

    Turk Rookie

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    I am not missing the point the point that you mentioned, however you are missing the point that Israel also deliberately targets civilians.

    The bombed UN building was not a mistake, it was a message.

    How do you suppose the parents of these children in the piuctures feel now towards Israel and the US? How do you think those innocent children feel?

    I am going to take a wild guess and claim that the emotions are very similar to those of an Israeli parent who is holding the corpse of his / her own child.

    It is not being a weak minded fool, it is refusing to be brainwashed; seeing the moral equivalance of murder of children as the same no matter if the murderer is wearing a uniform or a ski mask.
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 2, 2005
  9. QuiGon

    QuiGon Banned

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    I see no evidence of this.

    With all due respect, gimme a break. And thank you for showing just how ridiculous your arguments are.

    Like I said before... the weak minded see moral equivalence between Israel and the Hezbollah.
  10. QuiGon

    QuiGon Banned

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    Yes, proving even a broken clock is right twice a day, we seem to be in agreement on matters involving the current Israeli military actions.
  11. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    OOOOOOOH...That hurt Jedi Knight Boy.
    You like that little catch phrase: "weak minded fools", don't you you little chickenhawk. Did you learn that from your idol, Sean Hannity? I've learned that men who talk tough never walk tough and men who walk tough, never talk tough. You even make this Israeli / Lebanese thing seem like it has something to do with you. You may think your mind isn't weak, and those who disagree with your geopolitical "insight" are fools, but your arguements consistently prove that you are nothing more than arrogant and ignorant.
  12. Turk

    Turk Rookie

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    I would appreciate it if you stuck to the discussion and refrained from name calling, it is beneath the level of sophistication you are claiming to possess.


    Here are a few words from Andy Martin on this matter:

    CONTRARIAN COMMENTARY FOR JULY 26, 2006

    WAR IN THE MIDDLE EAST: PART SIX
    ISRAEL’S TIN SOLDIERS FACE A REAL ADVERSARY; NO “SIX-DAY SHOOTING GALLERY” THIS TIME

    HEZBOLLAH IS REDEEMING ARAB HONOR WHILE

    CONDO RICE IS AN EMBARRASSMENT TO EVERY AMERICAN

    (ROME) (July 26, 2006) Israeli “suicide bombers” continued to murder innocent women and children in Lebanon today. Suicide bombers you say? Yes, the Israeli state is committing suicide. Its bombs may be killing the innocents but in reality Israel is committing suicide.

    Hezbollah, on the other side, is punishing the flabby, MTV-addicted, American passport-carrying Israeli Army. Ever notice how fat Israeli generals are? There will be no cheers for a Six-Day victory this time.

    Most Americans have been drugged over the decades by Israeli-American media propaganda that Arabs are cowards, losers, incompetents, and worse. (Hint: the Nazis called them untermenschen; Israelis have the same attitude.) While the Saudi/Jordanian/Egyptian oligarchs root for Israel, it is hard not to feel that as Hezbollah bravely stands against the evil Israeli military machine we are all members of the Party of God.

    There can be no peace in the Middle East until Israel is defeated and the parties negotiate a peace agreement on a level playing field with mutual respect. Israelis have to taste defeat, to lose their swagger, arrogance, racism and contempt for their neighbors in the region. Hezbollah is moving the world closer to peace, not war.

    The Rome conference which begins today has already failed. America becomes an even bigger joke. American diplomats who support Israeli imperialism continue to pooh-pooh the Israeli massacre of Lebanon. But the world is laughing at us. We are losing an entire generation.

    Yes, the U. S. still has the power to force people to show up for canapés and shrimp ****tails. But America can no longer lead in working towards a genuine solution in the Middle East. Not yet anyway. George Bush has made all of us foot soldiers, and hostages, of Israel, Inc.

    And so, while I pray for peace, I accept that this war must be decided on the battlefield. Deep in their psyches, Israelis must also know this. But the “survival” they are fighting for is racist hegemony and oppression of the Middle East. Only when Israelis admit failure and purge their attitudes can peace come.

    Do not despair. Peace will come. The 1973 war brought peace; the 2006 war will also move the parties closer to the negotiating table as unlikely and unrealistic as that seems today.

    Meanwhile in Baghdad, George Bush is reinforcing his garrison there, three and a half years after Saddam surrendered. Bush won the Pyrrhic victory experts predicted. Americans are dying for nothing; not for democracy, not for freedom, not to fight terrorism. They are dying because Condo Rice and George Bush and Dick Cheney are utter incompetents when it comes to leading the world.

    I am a Republican, an old fashioned, traditional, stay-out-of-foreign entanglements Republican. So I have no love for Bill Clinton. But Clinton played a weak foreign policy hand exceptionally well. Bush inherited a strong hand, and has squandered his chips. America has been reduced to riding in a caboose as Israelis prepare to careen into the abyss.

    An old lawyers’ joke says “How can you tell when a lawyer is lying? When his lips are moving.” Today, “How can you tell when an Israeli is lying? When his lips are moving.”

    Oh, I know, Bush & Co. mouth the platitudes about how Hezbollah started the conflict. In a technical sense they did. But what decent human being could stand by and see the murder of helpless, unarmed Palestinians, an endless occupation, a racist regime terrorizing their homes and neighborhoods? Americans would never stand for what Arabs endure. Why do we condemn Hezbollah for fighting back, the same way we would?

    Yesterday, Israel deliberately attacked a U. N. observation post. They murdered U. N. observers with a clear, direct purpose: to intimidate nations from contributing to a U. N. peace force. The Israeli warmongers are as obstinate as the Japanese dictatorship that held out until final collapse in August, 1945.

    Israel is guilty of premeditated murder of U. N. troops. The lies about “apologies demanded” and “apologies extended” for the “tragic” incident are all a bunch of eyewash. Israelis bombed helpless U. N. observers to murder them as a warning to any country not to supply troops for an expanded peace mission.

    The reality is that Israeli leaders have never wanted peace, never worked for peace and always hungered for war. In their own way, the Israelis are as demented and as inferiority-complex ridden as the Arabs they condemn. Israelis feel they have to prove their power, just as Arabs have to redeem their honor after numerous defeats. The only way these contending forces can resolve matters is with blood. Until they are all drowning in blood and everyone says "enough.”

    Or until the American people stop allowing themselves to be used as Israeli spaniels and say "enough" and demand an end to the insanity. Until we stop swaggering about being the “only superpower.”

    Day after day the supposedly invincible Israeli forces can’t subdue a few thousand Arab warriors. They complain that Hezbollah fights guerilla-style? What did the generals expect? How did American patriots confront Hessian mercenaries in the War of Independence? With the same tactics now being used by Hezbollah.

    Nevertheless, despite my disgust for Israeli atrocities, and frustration with the unfortunate need to redeem Arab honor, I confidently and sadly predict U. S. foreign policy will suffer the most crushing blow of any participant in this kabuki. Bush and Condo will be the biggest losers.

    If only George, and as a person I like the guy, had done what he does best, and told the truth to both sides, and kept us out of this mess, there would not have been a mess. Instead, he egged the Israelis on, and he will take the blame in Israel when the shooting ends and Israelis are devastated by their defeat.

    The Middle East mess won't end until the people have democracy and freedom; on that Bush is right. But there is no democracy now, not in Israel and not in Arab nations. Democracies do not bomb helpless civilian populations. No they don't. Only military juntas show such contempt for human life.

    We can’t impose “freedom” on people who live under Israeli occupation. We can't impose freedom when we have a surrogate in the region that seeks to impose racist policies more typical of the Third Reich than Independence Hall in Pennsylvania.

    Ultimately, America and the “Israel lobby” have led Israel down the road to defeat. And Israel has led Americans down the road to defeat. Dreams die hard. But they are dying today in the Middle East.

    Hezbollah may have won the war, but more likely in the long run Bush and Olmert lost it. Their arrogance and contempt finally got them. They wanted to start a conflict; they got their war. But, as Donald Rumsfeld would say, they didn't get the war they planned for and trained for. They got the war Hezbollah prepared for. And now they are stuck with it. And Americans are stuck with them.

    When I enlisted in the U. S. Air Force Reserves in 1964 many air bases had signs saying “Peace Is Our Profession.” And it was. We kept the peace.

    Today, more than ever, America’s profession should be to move the world towards peace, not war. In a rather contrarian and counterintuitive manner, Hezbollah is leading the way to peace. It’s time for Americans to stop following, and start leading. We did it once. We can do it again. Are you listening George? Calling Car Condo?

    Peace not war. In Iraq. In Israel and Palestine. Then and only then can we defeat real terrorists and win the legitimate war against terrorism.

    ________________________________________________.

    Andy Martin is the Executive Editor and publisher of ContrarianCommentary.com. © Copyright by Andy Martin 2006. Comments? E-mail: AndyMart20@aol.com. Media contact: (866) 706-2639. Andy is America’s most respected independent foreign policy, military and intelligence analyst. He is a Middle East expert who is Executive Director of the Revolutionary War Research Center. He has spent 36 years in and out of the Middle East and spent much of 2003 in Iraq.
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2006
  13. Turk

    Turk Rookie

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    Here is an earlier one from Andy:


    WAR IN THE MIDDLE EAST: PART THREE
    WHY ARABS MUST DIE TO ELECT REPUBLICANS

    HOW WILL ISRAELI AGGRESSION "PLAY IN PEORIA?"

    IT'S TIME FOR PRESIDENT BUSH TO APPLY "EISENHOWER'S RULES"

    (WASHINGTON, DC) (July 17, 2006) Six years ago, July 27, 2000, I proposed the Andy Martin Peace Plan for the Middle East. The full release is still available for purchase at PRNewswire.com (look for "Andy Martin" and "Peace Plan").

    I advocated using U.S. forces (1) to separate Palestinians and Israelis and (2) to impose a peace based on withdrawal by all parties to 1967 lines. Although my columns are often unfairly smeared as "anti-Israel," in reality I am totally impartial and committed to a just solution for all parties.

    The parameters of a final resolution have long been known. Both sides, Palestinians and Israelis, would have to give. The United States would sweeten the peace pot with some goodies to bring agreement. Unfortunately, nothing has happened since 2000. Or since 1948. Politicians demand "restraint" and seek to prolong the conflict for their individual political profit.

    Now Israel has invaded an Arab country, again. It's not the first time. I suggest we go back to 1956, and the Israeli/British/French invasion of Egypt. What did President Eisenhower do? He told the Israelis to "get out." And they did.

    President Eisenhower may never be regarded as a great president, but he will come to be seen as one of our greater ones, because he kept us out of war during a very dangerous era, the Cold War. And he stayed neutral in the Arab/Israeli conflict. It is time for Americans to demand that President Bush apply "Eisenhower's Rules" and order the Israelis to stop their aggression, under penalty of suspension of U. S. aid and diplomatic recognition.

    Israelis never cared for Republicans, because the GOP was thought to be influenced by oil and business. At least not until George W. Bush.

    Bush has tilted U. S. policy so far in favor of Israel that he has made a joke of America's history in the Middle East. The result is the chaos we see today in Lebanon. And the Israeli destruction of Bush's own policies.

    Monday's New York Times reports that Bush has given the green light for Israel to "cripple Hezbollah." Well. He may end up crippling Israel, and will most certainly cripple his own foreign policy. Sorry, Mr. President. You keep getting it wrong.

    Israel provoked a confrontation with Palestinians in Gaza, thinking they could treat Gazans as human refuge and lay siege to the region. Much to the surprise of Israelis, Gazans fought back. When Israel unleashed terrorism against the civilian population, Hezbollah began a sympathy attack on the Lebanese front. No surprise there.

    Now Israel is feeling the wrath of the "Party of God" (Hezbollah). And Israelis don’t like it one bit. What bully ever does?

    Israel has unleashed a new round of civilian terror, seeking to destroy Lebanon. Uri Avnery in Tel Aviv writes that Israelis and Americans really want to establish a puppet regime in Beirut. Unfortunately, for Bush and Israelis, Israeli leaders are destroying the State of Israel.

    Israel won’t collapse before November, so what are the political implications of what the Israelis are doing today? How will aggression in Lebanon "play in Peoria?" There is no easy answer.

    For the past five years the Bush administration has sought to profit politically from terror. And because the Democratic Party has lacked for any alternative, let alone a credible alternative, Bush has prevailed with his mendacious policies. Unfortunately for Americans, while Bush has profited politically America's standing in the world has collapsed and is on the way even lower.

    You have to wonder how Condoleezza Rice and others can keep

    a straight face when they talk about "crippling" movements that spring from the people, and which will continue to rebel unless and until there is a peaceful solution to the conflict. The New York Times says Rice believes there is a "new day in the Middle East,..and a remarkable turn of events" because of Arab criticism of Hezbollah." Well. If she believes that there is no hope for us. At all. No one could be that naïve.

    Bush, Rove and others probably think they can exploit Israel's aggression for Republican votes. This strategy was on display in Russia over the weekend, where Bush sought to link local organizations in Palestine and Lebanon with Al Qaeda. Bush is playing the Osama card. Will voters say "enough" this time? It's hard to tell.

    Indeed, if there was a recruiting poster for Al Qaeda and Osama Bin Laden, it would have to be president Bush saying "Americans are ready to die to support the State of Israel." But are they? I don't see the Bush twins, or Governor Jeb Bush's son Jorge lining up to enlist. Indeed, have any Bushes enlisted recently? I doubt it.

    So we are left with a situation where President Bush has a policy contrary to American interests, which the American people would not support if it comes to fighting for Israel, and which is steadily endangering our economy and security. And still it might work in November. It may bring in just enough Republican votes.

    Bush loyalists are probably polling furiously, to see if they can link Israeli aggression to the "Global War Against Terror," to pander for pro-Jewish voters (which includes both Jews and non-Jews). My guess is that Republicans will continue to believe that Arab blood buys Republican votes.

    The sad reality is that even while Bush may eke out a few more votes in November, he is going to leave the Middle East in a shambles, and contribute to the death and destruction of America's interests. How we came to be in this mess will long be debated. That Arabs will be dying to deliver Republican voters for Bush is no longer in doubt.

    Ironically, Bush may win the first round early next month in Connecticut, where U. S. Senator Joe Lieberman is embattled because of his support for Bush. Jewish Democrats may rally behind Lieberman if they contemplate the consequences: a loss of Lieberman will dilute Jewish influence in the Senate.

    And so where are we today? The innocents perish so that the powerful may manipulate the world stage for their own personal aggrandizement and advancement. I'm not about to support Hezbollah, but I sure wish we had a real "party of God," that would put the fear of God in us for the evil we are visiting on helpless civilians. As a Christian and a Republican, I am ashamed of American policy in the Middle East.

    ________________________________________________.

    Andy Martin is the Executive Editor and publisher of ContrarianCommentary.com. © Copyright by Andy Martin 2006. Comments? E-mail: AndyMart20@aol.com. Media contact: (866) 706-2639. Andy is a Middle East expert who is Executive Director of the Revolutionary War Research Center. He has spent 36 years in and out of the Middle East and spent much of 2003 in Iraq.
  14. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    Dear Andy Martin:

    Regarding your hypocracy in this line: "When I enlisted in the U. S. Air Force Reserves in 1964 many air bases had signs saying “Peace Is Our Profession.” And it was. We kept the peace."
    ________________________________

    The Air Force of which you were so proud was dropping NAPALM on rice paddy villagers (who were NOT lobbing missiles onto Syracuse, Chicago and Minneapolis) within a couple of years of your enlistment. And you have the NERVE to write "We kept the peace" while at the same time condemning Israel for protecting itself?

    That is CLASSIC!
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2006
  15. Turk

    Turk Rookie

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    Here is a letter that may offer a bit more insight:



    A Letter

    The latest chapter of the conflict between Israel and Palestine began
    when Israeli forces abducted two civilians, a doctor and his brother,
    from Gaza. An incident scarcely reported anywhere, except in the
    Turkish press. The following day the Palestinians took an Israeli
    soldier prisoner - and proposed a negotiated exchange against
    prisoners taken by the Israelis - there are approximately 10,000 in
    Israeli jails.

    That this 'kidnapping' was considered an outrage, whereas the illegal
    military occupation of the West Bank and the systematic appropriation
    of its natural resources - most particularly that of water - by the
    Israeli Defence (!) Forces is considered a regrettable but realistic
    fact of life, is typical of the double standards repeatedly employed
    by the West in face of what has befallen the Palestinians, on the land
    alloted to them by international agreements, during the last seventy
    years.

    Today outrage follows outrage; makeshift missiles cross sophisticated
    ones. The latter usually find their target situated where the
    disinherited and crowded poor live, waiting for what was once called
    Justice. Both categories of missile rip bodies apart horribly - who
    but field commanders can forget this for a moment?

    Each provocation and counter-provocation is contested and preached
    over. But the subsequent arguments, accusations and vows, all serve as
    a distraction in order to divert world attention from a long-term
    military, economic and geographic practice whose political aim is
    nothing less than the liquidation of the Palestinian nation.

    This has to be said loud and clear for the practice, only half
    declared and often covert, is advancing fast these days, and, in our
    opinion, it must be unceasingly and eternally recognised for what it
    is and resisted.


    John Berger

    Noam Chomsky

    Harold Pinter

    Jose Saramago


    Mieussy, France
  16. Blue Collar

    Blue Collar Rookie

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    I found a video of QuiCon's alter ego when he's not fighting the darkside, he's protecting our earth.:rocker:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7fdBky13RQ&search=Superman#
  17. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Noam Chomsky noted communist and arraround anto semite and American hater... not much credibility. Don't know the others.
  18. Turk

    Turk Rookie

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    With all due respect, you are wrong on all of your three accusations. Mud slinging does not change the shining facts which are that first of all, Noam Chomsky is a Jew which makes a bit challenging:) to be an anti-semite; secondly, his political views are very critical of Leninist USSR and her politics; thirdly, and he is a professor, a widely respected one, at MIT, which makes him pretty darn credible, but that's just my opinion.
    By the way, being critical of our policies does not make us American haters.

    Here is a bit from his bio:

    "Political views
    Main article: Politics of Noam Chomsky
    Noam Chomsky has been engaged in political activism all of his adult life and expressed a wide range of opinions on politics and world events which are widely cited, publicized and discussed. Some highlights are:

    He holds a wide range of very strong criticisms of the U.S. government.
    He describes himself as a libertarian socialist or anarcho-syndicalist and is highly critical of Leninist branches of socialism.
    He holds views that can be summarized as anti-war: Anti-Vietnam War and against most other US interventions in conflicts of his lifetime.
    He has a classical liberal view of broad free-speech rights, especially in the mass media; he opposes censorship.
    He considers himself a Zionist in the traditional sense, previously supported a one-state solution to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict but now supports a two state solution.
    Chomsky has a broad range of criticisms of other aspects of the U.S. government, society and the mass media. He has had many intellectual engagements with his peers in academia.

    He does not see any particular strong connection between his views on language and his politics; although there is no doubt some overlap would be between any two fields of interest, and the details of his linguistic theories are not strongly translated into political form...."



    Here are the achievements of this man, an American scholar, whose credibility you are questioning:



    According to the Arts and Humanities Citation Index, between 1980 and 1992 Chomsky was cited as a source more often than any other living scholar, and the eighth most cited source overall.

    In the spring of 1969 he delivered the John Locke Lectures at Oxford University; in January 1970 he delivered the Bertrand Russell Memorial Lecture at Cambridge University; in 1972, the Nehru Memorial Lecture in New Delhi, in 1977, the Huizinga Lecture in Leiden, in 1997, The Davie Memorial Lecture on Academic Freedom in Cape Town, among many others.

    Noam Chomsky has received many honorary degrees from the most prestigious universities around the world, including the following: University of London, University of Chicago, Loyola University of Chicago, Swarthmore College, Delhi University, Bard College, University of Massachusetts, University of Pennsylvania, Georgetown University, Amherst College, Cambridge University, University of Buenos Aires, McGill University, Universitat Rovira I Virgili, Tarragona, Columbia University, University of Connecticut, Scuola Normale Superiore, Pisa, University of Western Ontario, University of Toronto, Harvard University, University of Calcutta, Universidad Nacional De Colombia, and Vrije Universiteit Brussel. He is a Fellow of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences and the National Academy of Science. In addition, he is a member of other professional and learned societies in the United States and abroad, and is a recipient of the Distinguished Scientific Contribution Award of the American Psychological Association, the Kyoto Prize in Basic Sciences, the Helmholtz Medal, the Dorothy Eldridge Peacemaker Award, the Ben Franklin Medal in Computer and Cognitive Science, and others. He is twice winner of The Orwell Award, granted by The National Council of Teachers of English for "Distinguished Contributions to Honesty and Clarity in Public Language".

    Chomsky was voted the leading living public intellectual in The 2005 Global Intellectuals Poll conducted by the British magazine Prospect. He reacted coolly, saying "I don't pay a lot of attention to polls". In a list compiled by the magazine New Statesman in 2006, he was voted seventh in the list of "Heroes of our time".


    Hardly the shallow, America hating, anti-semite, and did I mention that he is an American?
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2006
  19. Turk

    Turk Rookie

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    Here is another article, by another expert:



    US has to choose: Israel or the Middle East
    By Soumaya Ghannoushi



    The G8 convened just as Israel's tanks pounded Palestinian towns,
    villages and refugee camps, while a few miles away its warplanes set
    Lebanon's skies ablaze, turning its nights into an inferno of bombs,
    death and misery.

    Scores of innocent people have lost their lives. Villages have been
    levelled, and bridges, hospitals, roads, airports, fuel storage
    facilities and even milk factories have been destroyed.

    Years of regeneration effort are reduced to rubble. Pressure from the
    Americans and their British and German allies is such that no mention
    is made of a ceasefire in the statement issued. Israel is given leave
    to impose its agenda on Lebanon at gunpoint. After all, Ehud Olmert
    had said it: there can be no talk of a ceasefire, since "Israel needs
    more time".

    This unconditional support for Israel as it invades, occupies,
    demolishes, maims and massacres puts the entire Western moral and
    political order to the test.

    While evangelising about democracy and reform, the US and increasingly
    Europe continue to give Israel open leave punish the Palestinian
    people collectively for their electoral choice, through air raids,
    ground incursions, siege and starvation...


    ...In its latest military operation in the Gaza Strip, which has left
    more than 200 civilians dead, many of whom are children, the Israeli
    Defence Forces (IDF) have abducted the Palestinian deputy prime
    minister, along with two cabinet ministers and 56 parliamentarians. On
    July 1 its warplanes attacked the headquarters of the recently elected
    Palestinian prime minister, Ismail Haniyeh.

    While preaching freedom to the people of the region, the US and many
    Western countries do not hesitate to provide political cover for the
    illegal seizure and occupation of Arab land in Palestine, Lebanon and
    Syria.

    And while filling the air with demands for the release of two captured
    Israeli soldiers, it turns a blind eye to the 10,000 Palestinian and
    Lebanese civilians languishing in Israeli jails, about 4,000 of whom
    are detained administratively without charge or trial.

    The US has to know it cannot aid and abet aggressive occupation and
    rampant expansionism while hoping to "win Muslims' hearts and minds".
    The two cannot go together. No wonder that most have lost faith in the
    American-led rhetoric of democracy, human rights and reform.

    Much of the region's troubles issue from this increasing convergence
    between American and Israeli policy in the Middle East. The similarity
    between the two strategies concocted in Tel Aviv and Washington is
    such that it has become increasingly difficult to tell which is which.

    Breaking what has been a taboo for decades, Professors John
    Mearsheimer and Steve Walt concluded in their article "The Israeli
    Lobby" that American foreign policy is more representative of Israeli
    than American national interests. The US Middle East policy is
    contrary to the long-term strategic interests of the United States.

    The alliance between the US and Israel is not something new. Since the
    end of the 1950s, preserving Israel's security was passed from the
    British to the US.

    Ever since, American national interests have been seen as wedded to
    those of the state of Israel. However, what is new is that Israel has
    moved from a proxy at the service of British/American interest in the
    strategic Middle East to a definer of American policy itself.

    It has become customary for consecutive British and American
    administrations to provide full support for Israel in its invasions,
    incursions and wars. With Bush and Blair, however, the usual frigid
    calls for restraint have vanished, making way for assertions of
    Israel's right to defend itself and combat terrorism.

    This is as though Israel were a wretched occupied country, not the
    world's fourth-largest military force and the region's sole nuclear
    power. It has repeatedly invaded its neighbours' lands, colonising the
    Egyptian Sinai desert, Lebanon, the Syrian Golan Heights and the
    Palestinian territories.

    While preaching freedom to the people of the region, the US and many
    Western countries do not hesitate to provide political cover for the
    illegal seizure and occupation of Arab land in Palestine, Lebanon and
    Syria. Its massive military arsenal has been used to impose and expand
    illegal settlement, pursue collective punishment of the local
    populations and terrorise its neighbours through raids, kidnappings,
    assassinations, massacres, violations of air space and territorial
    waters and detentions of scores of prisoners with impunity.

    Since 1979 Israel has received over $130 billion and continues to
    receive nearly 40 per cent of total US foreign aid. Direct American
    aid to Israel in recent years has exceeded $3.5 billion annually, with
    an additional $1 billion through other sources, and has been supported
    almost unanimously in congress, even by liberal Democrats who normally
    insist on linking aid to human rights and international law.

    Israel's long record of violation of international law is made
    possible by the heavy diplomatic support guaranteed by the US. In the
    past 30 years, the latter has used its veto in the Security Council to
    protect Israel from international criticism, censure, or sanction,
    more than 40 times. The last one was on July 13, 2006, when it blocked
    a draft resolution condemning Israel's attacks on the Gaza Strip and
    demanding an end to the tragic humanitarian crisis in the Palestinian
    territories.

    The US has to know it cannot aid and abet aggressive occupation and
    rampant expansionism while hoping to "win Muslims' hearts and minds".
    The two cannot go together.

    A series of reports and surveys have indicated growing animosity to
    the United States in the Muslim world.

    The latest was a Pew Research Centre poll of six Muslim countries
    (Indonesia, Lebanon, Jordan, Turkey, Pakistan, and Morocco). An
    earlier Pew Global Attitudes survey of 50 nations in 2002 and 2003
    found that the US was less popular in the Middle East than any other
    part of the world. Even in Turkey, a longstanding US ally, 83% had an
    unfavourable opinion of the US, matching levels in Jordan and Palestine.

    Today, the survey concludes: "The US remains largely disliked in the
    region. Anti-Americanism in the region is driven largely by aversion
    to US policies, such as the war on Iraq, the war on terrorism and US
    support for Israel."

    No amount of PR or media propaganda can improve those troubled
    relations. The problem is not with the marketing, as American
    statesmen like to believe, but with the product itself. It is with the
    great strategies pursued in the region.

    So long as the US insists on imposing Israel as its chief agent in its
    overarching designs to rearrange the map of the Middle East within a
    master/slave relation, it will reap nothing but more disasters and
    chronic chaos.

    Two facts are becoming clearer by the day: Israel is increasingly
    turning into a burden on itself, on its guardians, as well as on its
    countless victims; and that the people of the region will never accept
    an Israeli Middle East.

    Sooner or later the US will have to decide between the whole Middle
    East along with the Muslim world beyond, and its Israeli ally. There
    lies the problem and the remedy.

    Soumaya Ghannoushi is a researcher at the School of Oriental & African
    Studies, University of London.
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2006
  20. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    Turk,
    Can't you respond with sound-bites and harsh quips instead of all this in-depth, insightful and highly documented facts? It makes it difficult to respond to you with harsh quips and sound-bites.

    Very good posting - especially Choamsky. Americans have a hard time hearing criticism, and when an intellectually grounded, fact-clad criticism confronts them, the easiest response is to label that source as "anti-American", "communist" (outdated, now the word is "terrorist sympathizer"), and other simplistic retorts. Keep up the good and thorough work.
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 3, 2005

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