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Texas no fly zone?

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by emoney_33, May 25, 2011.

  1. emoney_33

    emoney_33 Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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  2. chicowalker

    chicowalker Pro Bowl Player

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    I don't agree with you, emoney. These aren't random searches of unsuspecting citizens.

    Once can think that a patdown goes too far, but the idea that it is the same as a search without probably cause protected by the 4th amendment goes way too far.

    By that logic, isn't a metal detector and x-ray at the airport also a search?

    And why limit it to airports? Is it a violation to require any form of security screening at government buildings and courthouses? Police stations? Prisons? State legislatures? The White House and other Federal government buildings?

    This reminds me of Peter King (R-NY) calling for no firearms zones around legislators. (Presumably he was in favor of gun rights.) I wonder what kind of screening is required at the Texas State House, etc. -- wherever the pols who initiated and are supporting the TX law have their offices.
     
  3. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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  4. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

    Mrs.PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    It's also hard to claim you're being "forced into" anything when, in all reality, if you're that dead set against any kind of search, you can simply choose not to fly. Nobody makes anyone enter an airport as far as I know.

    My rights are only violated if I had absolutely no choice in the matter. Anyone who buys a plane ticket instead of a bus ticket or a train ticket has made their choice....and they know the consequences.

    I wonder how worried people would be about getting on a plane if there were no security measures in place?

    I figure, you get to choose your poison - am I going to be afraid for 10 minutes standing in line that I'm going to be singled out for a pat-down or do I worry for 10 hours on a transatlantic flight that someone's carrying a bomb hidden in the shoe they no longer had to remove?
     
  5. emoney_33

    emoney_33 Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Sorry but you are absolutely wrong, it is exactly random searches of American men, women and children. The acceptance of it by Americans is disgusting.

    For one that's a false dichotomy, no one ever advocated "NO" security measures. Secondly, it's NOT increasing your safety. Random searches do absolutely NOTHING to increase your safety. 0, zilch, nada. It's just moving towards a police state. It's ridiculous. Oh sorry, no flying for you unless you get frisked up and down, and maybe your child too.

    It's absolutely disgusting that people accept this. America needs to wake up and realize this is not right, this is driven by bogus FUD. Wake up people, the TSA, the Patriot ACT, the Protect IP act... The government is trending toward fascism and a police state. This is not America.

    "Don't fly" is a copout. You see what RW posted, you aren't any safer after that.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2011
  6. chicowalker

    chicowalker Pro Bowl Player

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    You've got to do better than that.

    Have you ever been stopped on the street by a TSA agent and frisked? Had them come into your home for no reason? Of course not.

    So if you want to address anything I brought up in my post, let's hear it. Otherwise all you're saying is "I'm right and you're wrong," which, frankly, is the territory of other folks on this board, not you.
     
  7. emoney_33

    emoney_33 Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Not yet, but what's that matter? "First they came for the..."

    If you are in American society, 40+ hour work week, 2-4 weeks vacation, you want/need to travel to the other side of the country or to another country, then flying is really your only true option. Air travel is privately owned companies providing a service to the people. Random searches do nothing for security. Having your genitals touched is sexual assault and it's downright criminal to say that the government may not let you use a private service if you don't allow someone to frisk you or your child. Which involves sticking their finger in your underwear lining as well as grazing your private parts. There is not even probable cause, and it's oppressive. Plus it's only the first step, they'll be making it into subways soon.
     
  8. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It kills me to say this "Chico is right".

    We now know without a doubt that we have an enemy that wants to kill us, what should we do to try and prevent them from killing us,.

    It kills me to say this "Mrs Pats is also right" if trying to protect you when you fly bothers you, Don't Fly, I want all passengers searched that I am flying with and I don't give a sh!t about their Civil Liberties, 15 Muslims were the cause of this now we have to live with it the best we can, I would go even further PROFILE, IF THE PROFILEE DOESN'T LIKE IT, TOUGH SH!T, LET THEM TAKE THE BUS.

    :bricks:
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2011
  9. chicowalker

    chicowalker Pro Bowl Player

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    It matters because they are saying this is protected by the 4th Amendment.

    The argument that you proceed to make below comes under the heading of what I alluded to in my post: "...Once can think that a patdown goes too far, but the idea that it is the same as a search without probably cause protected by the 4th amendment goes way too far..."


    Air travel isn't simply private owned.

    Airplanes and airlines are privately owned. The air absolutely is not. Neither are most airports. The private owners also do not own the land above wich they fly, obviously.

    There are very clear public interests here that go well beyond the private ownership of the airplanes and airlines.

    Now, as I already alluded to above and in my prior post, if you want to say that our current searches are inappropriate, ineffective, etc., that's perfectly fair. I would largely agree with you.

    But I don't think they're unconstitutional, any more than I think it is unconstitutional to prevent a passenger from carrying a handgun onto a jet or into a federal building.

    If you really do think this is unconstitutional, please explain why other forms of searches before boarding an airline are not unconstitutional.
     
  10. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    We lock our doors at night to keep the filthy foul vermin scum from entering our homes to rob and kill us, are we violating the swine pigs civil liberties in doing so.

    Loons
    Are there any loons in the land of loons that think locking our homes up at night is somehow violating the smelly ciminals civil liberties.

    Profile It May Save Your Life:
    If they look like the enemy strip search them making sure to closely investigate all body openings and arm pits.

    :bricks:
     
  11. Nikolai

    Nikolai Football Atheist PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #54 Jersey

    They serve as the last safety net of our security. If intelligence fails at every level to detect the threat walking onto a plane, it's the lottery of hoping that the TSA personnel can identify and neutralize the threat. It's not much, but it's not nothing either.

    Some of these searches are absurd, however, and I get the feeling that some of that is political in nature. For example, for every obvious non-terrorist they search (i.e. a six year old girl), they can feel free to profile a guy wearing a dishadasha. Meaning, if a TSA worker sees a suspicious, Mediterranean looking guy and wants to check him, but is worried about claims of racial profiling, would they go ahead and search a six year old a few spots in front of him to cover their arse? I'm not privy to the inner workings of TSA, but I just wonder.

    There is precedence for what seems to be a non-threatening person being checked and found to be carrying Semtex aboard an El Al flight (google "Anne Marie Murphy" and it should come up). Still, this was not necessarily random and the check was performed after security personnel, well-trained in identifying threats, singled her out and checked her.

    Again, I'm not privy to the dealings within TSA, but I get the distinct impression that they are not nearly as well trained and professional as their El Al counterparts. If there were better training given to these personnel, I don't think we'd have to be watching this silliness like we see in the video RW posted.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2011
  12. chicowalker

    chicowalker Pro Bowl Player

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    I'm sure there is wide variation among TSA staff, as there pretty much has to be given its size; and El Al has the advantage of being much smaller, and we may also have a tendency to inflate their staff's capabilities (we may, we may not). All that said, I'm pretty confident the bolded part of your post is an understatement given what I (and probably most people) have observed in my travels... :)
     
  13. Nikolai

    Nikolai Football Atheist PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #54 Jersey

    Oh yes, I've seen some overestimation of El Al's abilities that run parallel to many people's perceptions on Israeli security and the IDF. However, El Al does make a habit of hiring personnel with previous relevant military or other security training, think Shin Bet, Mossad, or Aman. I recall TSA offering $40K a year on monster.com back in the day, and I'm not sure the scattershot approach has changed much.

    Indeed.
     
  14. sdaniels7114

    sdaniels7114 Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Where we draw the line is one question, another is this recent tendency to change exactly who gets to decide. I find it very telling that the Texas legislature was perfectly content with letting this issue be settled nationally when the people in charge of the nation all had little R's alongside their names.
     
  15. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Don't blame TSA, blame the 15 Muslims, now TSA has to remember, there are more where they came from.
     

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