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Texas law requires sonograms, explanations before abortions

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Gainzo, May 23, 2011.

  1. Gainzo

    Gainzo In the Starting Line-Up

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    #11 Jersey

    I know Republicans are pro-life and I have no problem with that stance (Its a free Country). My problem with this is twofold:

    1). Putting a barrier on a legal medical procedure.
    2). Who pays for the sonogram?

    Texas law requires sonograms, explanations before abortions - CNN
     
  2. patsfan13

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    Mnay procedures require informed consent. Many women suffer depression after killing an unborn child, and there have been women who have died from botched abortions. They should be afforded to opportunity to see the life they are terminating. Insurance should cover the cost just like other medical procedures.
     
  3. Harry Boy

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    Casterization, hysterrectamal procedures, vasectomenial sh!t and other methods would help.

    If your slut is knocked up and you want to get rid of it take her horse back riding.

    :bricks:
     
  4. chicowalker

    chicowalker Pro Bowl Player

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    Examples? (comparable ones, please -- not children, etc.)


    Fortunately this doesn't involve any children.

    And what do the risks of the procedure, or possibility of depression, have to do with a sonogram? If you were truly concerned about "informed consent," they would be made aware of those risks.


    They have the opportunity. That's not what the law is about.

    Question is whether the government should be forcing individuals to do this.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2011
  5. Gainzo

    Gainzo In the Starting Line-Up

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    #11 Jersey

    Texas already has a 24 hour waiting period before a woman gets an abortion. Why is this law necessary?

    Insurance should cover an unnecessary cost (sonogram)? That makes no sense. I'm pretty sure the private insurance companies in Texas will drop abortion coverage based on this law as it is a cost they don't want to pay for.

    They are after all, all about $$
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2011
  6. Nikolai

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    #54 Jersey

    They're still letting them get the abortion, but are making sure they know what it is they are doing, and I don't really have a problem with education. I've heard one version of what Planned Parenthood tells prospective clients, but perhaps someone could tell me from the pro-choice side. Do they help their clients make informed decisions?
     
  7. Nikolai

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    #54 Jersey

    Interesting points about the insurance coverage. I think your concern has plausibility. Hrmmm...
     
  8. emoney_33

    emoney_33 Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Well not exactly. It's more of an attempt to encourage obedience with fear and guilt. If it were in the name of education, put it in the schools for all to learn, not the clinic when emotions are heavily involved.
     
  9. Gainzo

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    #11 Jersey

    Have you seen 12th and Delaware? It was a documentary that aired last year on HBO. It is chilling to watch.

    http://www.allvoices.com/contribute...are-abortion-documentary-premieres-august-2nd
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2011
  10. patsfan13

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    What are the cost for women who suffer servre injuries and even death from abortions?

    What are the cost of treating the psychological probrems that can accompany abortions?

    What is the cost of lost productivity from children who are never born?

    Less than the cost of an ultra sound. When the capital cost of the machine is amoritized the incremental cost of a scan should be minimal.

    My daighter had a couple during routinue checkup to make sure her baby was OK. It was inculded in the prenatal visit.

    This is a straw man argument IMO. Many women on seeing the baby in their womb change their mind. This is the concern of the pro abortion people. Women having more information and making a decision for life rather than death.
     
  11. chicowalker

    chicowalker Pro Bowl Player

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    Education is great, but I think the question here is what level of education and whether that is the government's role.

    I'm tempted to tie this back to the circumcision discussion. :)
     
  12. chicowalker

    chicowalker Pro Bowl Player

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    There's an obvious counter question to every one you've raised here.

    Love the "productivity" one, btw -- who knew that children are simply a unit of labor?

    Your argument is a strawman as well. Anti-choice people just want to control women and impose their own antiquated sexual mores on others, and then leave those woman and their children to fend for themselves after birth, demonizing those who get any form of government assistance. (see how productive this kind of tripe is, 13?)
     
  13. Nikolai

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    #54 Jersey

    I actually like that idea better.

    I was actually caught in the crossfire of a similar situation in Norfolk, VA. I used to do web development back in the day and was hired to make a website for an anti-abortion group, which was run by someone who used to work for Planned Parenthood as a regional manager, or so she said (she may have been, but I had no way to verify and didn't really care). She sat me down and told me all about how they were in the business of performing abortions over at PP and she became disillusioned with the abortion-centric view of the organization. She then converted to Christianity and went the other way, combating her former employer. Some of the stuff she said was interesting but I've never been able to verify it. After I put the website up for the anti-abortion group, I had someone who said they represented PP contact me and advise me that the woman I spoke to was lying about whatever it was she had to say.

    The whole thing was creepy and I told the anti-abortion group that I didn't want to be involved with this thing anymore (I made websites for money, not causes) and I walked away after finding a new Christian webmaster who was willing to get involved. In any event, it was (and probably still is) a bitter battle between the two groups.

    See what I mean? :)
     
  14. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #24 Jersey

    Most especially there were maternal deaths before abortions became legal.

    Does this mean you are now ok with insurance coverage for abortion? I seem to recall you being against it in the past - most especially against it if there was even a hint of government money involved.
     
  15. Gainzo

    Gainzo In the Starting Line-Up

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    #11 Jersey

    Ultrasounds are a money maker for insurance company's. We had one before my son was born (1996) and none when my daughter was born (1998). Our Doctor didn't need to see anything to know that both kids were healthy.

    The Texas law makes getting an abortion harder for women and provides insurance company's another chance to bill someone for an unnecessary procedure. Isn't that a win-win for Republicans? Focus on a social issue while private company's make more money?
     
  16. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #24 Jersey

    Statistics to back this up, please?

    Honestly, PF13, they are not "pro-abortion" people - they are "pro-choice" people - and as such, have as many and diverse opinions on abortion, family planning, birth control and women's rights as there are believers.

    I'll even go so far as to say there are no "pro-abortion" people. Hard as it may be for you to believe, no one who is pro-choice relishes the idea of abortion - they'd much prefer that the woman had not gotten pregnant in the first place - that she had had better access to birth control, to birth control information, that, if she was a teenager, she had received sex education in school - that every mother who found herself pregnant had a support system, both monetarily and mentally which allowed her to keep her child - but those things don't always exist, PF13 - and the options narrow to 2 - allow the fetus to grow and become a child or abort. Some will choose abortion. Some will always be desperate enough to choose abortion. It is her body and her choice. She is the only one who will have to live with herself. A desperate woman is not going to be swayed by a sonogram picture or a doctor's explanation. She is desperate and desperation means you do not always hear or understand what is being told. Now if the doctor could tell her how she is going to be able to support that child and love that child and care for that child if she keeps it, maybe THAT would help....but he can't. We, as a nation, do not provide that sort of support for our pregnant women. That would be a socialist country which did that....and we are not socialists.

    Please, do us all a favor and do yourself a big service - quit referring to pro-choice people as "pro-abortion" or portraying them as people who want women to choose abortions - we don't want them to choose abortions and we wish to God that their options were more varied but we also do not feel they should be forced, by governmental law, into a choice they do not want to make because we have removed all other choices from them.
     
  17. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #24 Jersey

    I have another problem with it and perhaps someone who is decidedly pro-life can explain it to me.

    It says this in the new bill:

    The doctor, then, is required to give, "in a manner understandable to a layperson, a verbal explanation of the results of the sonogram images, including a medical description of the dimensions of the embryo or fetus, the presence of cardiac activity, and the presence of external members and internal organs," the law states.

    There are some exceptions, including pregnancies that resulted from sexual assault, incest or other violations of law.

    Women seeking abortions also are exempt if the fetus has been found to have an irreversible medical condition that will cause a disability.


    Now my question is this: I presume pro-life people are operating on the premise that all life begins at conception and that all life is sacred and that aborting a fetus is tantamount to murder, correct?

    If this is so - how do you justify not offering the same protection to a child conceived of rape, incest or other violation of the law or to a disabled child? Are they somehow not equal in your eyes? Less deserving of the chances you are giving to the other children?

    Are you not playing God here in a manner of speaking by singling out certain fetuses and exempting them from being introduced to their mother before she decides to abort them? Could not one of these mothers also change her mind in spite of the conditions present?

    Why are these prospective children given less opportunity than other prospective children?

    Why can a mother decide, without sonographic assistance, to abort a defective child or a child of rape when she cannot decide, without sonographic assistance, to abort any other unwanted child?
     
  18. Gainzo

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    #11 Jersey

    I feel for you. As I said earlier, 12th and Delaware was one of the most chilling things I have ever watched.

    One more point on the documentary: pro-life centers outnumber abortion clinics five to one.

    http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/08/05/hbos-12th-and-delaware-where-pro-choice-and-pro-life-inter/
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2011
  19. chicowalker

    chicowalker Pro Bowl Player

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    No, mrs, they're evil, murdering people who hate children.


    Never happen. People like that just want to demonize others, as they pretend to know something that is unknowable. Much easier than actually discussing real issues. (Of course, I'm not referring to any particular person here, just that group of people. I wouldn't want to violate any forum rules or anything.)
     
  20. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #24 Jersey

    Quote:Originally Posted by patsfan13
    Never mind - as you always tell me, " Don't be lazy, google it yourself," and so I did.

    There's a lot of conjecture but not been much done in the way of actual study but this is what I found available:


    Wiebe has done some of the few studies worldwide that attempt to look at women's reactions to viewing an ultrasound pre-abortion. The research can't speak directly to laws like the proposed Texas bill, Wiebe told LiveScience, because in that study "nobody was ever forced to do something they didn't want to do." But it is the closest thing to research anyone has ever done on state sonogram policies.

    The study, published in 2009 in the European Journal of Contraception and Reproductive Health Care, found that, when given the option, 72 percent of women chose to view the sonogram image. Of those, 86 percent said it was a positive experience. None changed their mind about the abortion.

    In another study, this one published in 2009 in the journal Contraception, Wiebe analyzed how many women chose to look at the embryonic or fetal tissue removed during an abortion. Only about 28 percent of women were interested – "they're curious," Wiebe said – but of those, 83 percent said that viewing the embryo or fetus did not make the process more emotionally difficult.


    As to a waiting period:

    Researchers who have tried to look into the effects of 24- or 48-hour waiting periods have found that abortion rates might drop in those states, she said, but increase in neighboring states as women go where the law is less restrictive.

    Abortion Debate: Little Evidence Sonograms Change Minds, Doctors Say | Texas Abortion Debate | Politics & Medical Ethics | LiveScience
     

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