Tell us how you REALLY feel, Kerry: WEEI article on the secondary

[jmt57]

While Byrne is (obviously) correct that the Pats defense has slipped this year, blaming it strictly on the corners is something I would expect from a fan who knows very little about the game, or a writer who does not follow the team closely. As pointed out by a few others, the root cause is the lack of presure In addition, the Pats scheme does not call for a Deion Sanders - type CB, but places more emphasis on other positions. It's ironic that Byrne mentions Wilfork and Warren, yet then goes back to harping on the secondary. He then goes on to mention a guy who isn't playing due to injury (Tank Williams) and other free agents signed for minimum contracts who weren't even expected to make the team as 'proof' that "there's been one personnel mistake after the other." Based on that logic, any player who is cut is a mistake by the front office.

Shoddy journalism, especially for a local writer that should have a better understanding of this team. I would expect something like this from an amateur blog at a site like Bleacher Report, but it's embarrassing to come from 'EEI, which touts itself as biggest/best/most knowledgeable.

 

[jmt57]

To beat a dead horse just a little more, take a look at the top two teams in the NFL in pass defense: the Giants and Steelers. The reason that their pass defense is so good is the pressure they get on the QB. Not coincidentally, they rank 1st and 4th in sacks, with players like Woodley and Harrison or Tuck applying the pressure. At the other end of the spectrum, among the teams with the worst pass defense are the Chargers (32nd) despite the big name/high draft pick corners such as Jammer, Cromartie and Cason. Same could be said about Denver, ranked 29th, who was bad against the pass even before Champ bailey got hurt.

These five teams - the Steelers, Giants, Pats, Chargers and Broncos - offer proof that an effective pass rush is more important to pass defense than corners.

 

[Richter]

can u tell me who tennessee's starting corners are w/o looking?

now can u tell me who is on their d-line?

the titans have the best defense w/ no name cb's, the key is pressure, and its pressure up front...

the front 7 need more work, the cb's are fine

Uh, Cortland Finnegan, a guy who's probably going to the pro-bowl starts for Tennessee? Yeah, he was a 7th rounder, but he's a damn good corner. Nick Harper, former Colt, is on the other side, who's decent. Didn't have to look to know either of those guys started for the Titans. Your point is valid, but it's not like Tennessee runs scrubs out there at corner. A dominating pass rusher should be the first priority, but a top corner on one side opens up a lot of things for a defense too. This team is in a position to add both in the upcoming offseason. There are 3 loaded positions in this upcoming draft - 3-4 OLB, OT and CB. The Pats could use one of each, and they have the picks to address all three. There is some nice talent at the top of the class at safety too, so if Cassel can net them a pick, they could address all four positions with legit talents in the first two rounds, to add to the already solid young core in place on defense. Free agency will boast some solid players available too. There's no need to settle for just one piece of the puzzle this offseason - this defense can return to elite status immediately.

 

[BionicPatriot]

Uh, Cortland Finnegan, a guy who's probably going to the pro-bowl starts for Tennessee? Yeah, he was a 7th rounder, but he's a damn good corner. Nick Harper, former Colt, is on the other side, who's decent. Didn't have to look to know either of those guys started for the Titans. Your point is valid, but it's not like Tennessee runs scrubs out there at corner. A dominating pass rusher should be the first priority, but a top corner on one side opens up a lot of things for a defense too. This team is in a position to add both in the upcoming offseason. There are 3 loaded positions in this upcoming draft - 3-4 OLB, OT and CB. The Pats could use one of each, and they have the picks to address all three. There is some nice talent at the top of the class at safety too, so if Cassel can net them a pick, they could address all four positions with legit talents in the first two rounds, to add to the already solid young core in place on defense. Free agency will boast some solid players available too. There's no need to settle for just one piece of the puzzle this offseason - this defense can return to elite status immediately.

Do you think Finnigan is AS good if he's on THIS team? I don't. He wouldn't have half the pass rush he's used to. Nick Harper is OK, that's it. Yet he's doing fine, also a product of the front 7. I agree, we could use pieces in the secondary. However, the prize for the eyes this offseason has to be a good pass rusher.

Why do you think since McGoo withered away our pass rush has gotten worse just about every year/stayed the same? Because Vrabel got older, and we the one LB we have brought in, isn't the pass rusher we thought he was. Plain and simple, we need that stud on the outside.

I say target a SS and OLB as the most cruical for the defense.

 

[Richter]

Do you think Finnigan is AS good if he's on THIS team? I don't. He wouldn't have half the pass rush he's used to. Nick Harper is OK, that's it. Yet he's doing fine, also a product of the front 7. I agree, we could use pieces in the secondary. However, the prize for the eyes this offseason has to be a good pass rusher.

Why do you think since McGoo withered away our pass rush has gotten worse just about every year/stayed the same? Because Vrabel got older, and we the one LB we have brought in, isn't the pass rusher we thought he was. Plain and simple, we need that stud on the outside.

I say target a SS and OLB as the most cruical for the defense.

I think Finnegan would be pretty good no matter where he played, he's a talented guy. That he slipped through the cracks during the draft process and hasn't be lauded like some more notable corners doesn't reflect poorly on him, just on the league's talent evaluators. Harper is more of product of the front 7, but he's still a solid player. I fully agree a top pass rusher should be priority number 1, but an elite corner helps a lot too. Thankfully, this draft is loaded with talented young pass rushers that are suited for the 3-4. I don't know if Belichick and Pioli foresaw this draft class being so loaded because of the status of the CBA resulting in a huge number of underclassmen likely declaring, but it's going to turn out that way, at just the right time for the Pats. Mark my words, the Pats will spend a first round pick on a guy like George Selvie or Everette Brown, guys that are Willie McGinest/DeMarcus Ware clones. Hopefully they can find a way to snag another 1st rounder and get my guy out of Baylor, Jason Smith, to bolster the OT position, and then spend the Chargers second rounder, which looks like it'll be fairly high in the round, on a safety. Taylor Mays will probably blow up at the combine and go a lot earlier than he should, but a guy like William Moore could drop to the high to mid second round area and be a total steal. A shrewd, low-key year in free agency to prepare for a potential uncapped year, followed by a run at a guy like Asomaugh? That could be one hell of a defense.

 

[captain stone]

I agree with everything this guy wrote, and have myself said the same things since the awful 2004 draft. It's as if space aliens landed at NEP draft HQ immediately after the Wilfork pick, and have been making personnel decisions ever since then.

It's time to face facts: this is no longer a championship-calibre FO. Maybe the reasons include losing too many evaluators, e.g.: Dimitroff, Lionel Vital. It has been stated that the college scouting dept. does not rely on outside info to complement its own evals of draft-eligible prospects. Maybe it's time to re-evaluate that position. Whatever the reasons, it has become sadly obvious that a certain level of lazy, smug, smarter-than-thou arrogance has infected the FO.

Perhaps another disaster vs. Miami, and a season ending without a PO appearence will wake up Pioli & Little Bill into finally looking in their mirrors, admitting their mistakes & imperfections, and doing everything they possibly can to correct their problems while Tom Brady still wants to be their QB.

P.S.: the writer should have mentioned the extinct pass-rush, and shame on him for not doing so; but the reasons for that particular disaster can also be traced to the same source.

 

[Brady'sButtBoy]

The pass rush is inconsistent at best (sacks may not be the best indicator of how good your rush is BTW, we led the league last year) and the linebackers don't seem to be helping coverage very well. We supposedly have 3 probowl caliber men on the D line - 2 gap or no, they ought to be creating more havoc if they are really that good. Of course, with little significant pressure coming off the edges teams have been stacking up the middle against us.

i wonder if anyone keeps numbers on the success ratio per blitz, it doesn't seem we do all that well sending extra people.

Take a look at our ghastly 43% 3rd down allowed percentage - sixth worst in the league. The only team that matters possessing a worse ranking is Indy.

you may be surprised to know that only 3 other teams have had fewer passes attempted against them - Texans, Lions, Rams! Yes, our ball control style reduces plays in general, so that the number of attempts will be down but you'd have to wonder why teams aren't throwing more when you see that only the Rams, Lions, Texans, and Seahawks give up more yards (7.8) per pass play! That, no matter whose fault, puts us is pretty bad company. Coverage failures by the DB's have to be a factor in this to some degree.

A better indication of how soft other teams may think our pass D is - only the Ravens give a lower percentage of 1st downs by rushing. Now the Ravens are down there because you just can't run on them; given that our run D is mid-ranked, it seems likely we give up so few 1st downs via the rush because more teams are know they can pass quite easily against us. When was the last time a team looked worried, really worried about our D coming after them...?

We are 9th in scoring defense, not so bad.

 

[condon84]

Re: Tell us how you REALLY feel, Kerry: WEEI article on the secondary.

The coverage struggled the year Law left, and then rebounded after Hobbs grew into the role. This year, the team is trying to replace Samuel and the top draft pick is injured.

In other words, his argument is flawed at best, and completely wrong at worst.

Correction, the coverage has struggled since we have not been allowed to manhandle receivers down the field. Even when Asante was here, he gave up a good amount of big plays. He made some plays of his own, but, I never considered Asante a lockdown reciever.

But you can't deny that this guy has a solid argument about the drafting of defensive players ever since Wilfork was drafted. He lists them and I agree with his assesment of the players we've drafted so far.

I'm not saying that our management has been total buffoons because they've done great in building our offense and this year's crop of defensive players are looking good too. But as of RIGHT NOW, because of bad drafting of defensive players, specifically DBs, we are suffering.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Tell us how you REALLY feel, Kerry: WEEI article on the secondary.

Correction, the coverage has struggled since we have not been allowed to manhandle receivers down the field. Even when Asante was here, he gave up a good amount of big plays. He made some plays of his own, but, I never considered Asante a lockdown reciever.

But you can't deny that this guy has a solid argument about the drafting of defensive players ever since Wilfork was drafted. He lists them and I agree with his assesment of the players we've drafted so far.

I'm not saying that our management has been total buffoons because they've done great in building our offense and this year's crop of defensive players are looking good too. But as of RIGHT NOW, because of bad drafting of defensive players, specifically DBs, we are suffering.

No, they have not "struggled since we have not been allowed to manhandle receivers down the field." Even a cursory look at the numbers shows, for example, a 66.1 passer rating for opponents in 2006.

The guy's argument is lousy because it failed to take into account the transitional nature of the down seasons. Note the 3 worst seasons under Belichick were the first season of his tenure, the first season after Law left, and this first season post-Samuel. 2006 was actually the second best season of Belichick's tenure.



As to your assertion, is your argument really that they've drafted badly at the db slot?

Wilson
Sanders
Hobbs
Samuel
Meriweather
Wheatley

 

[nashvillepatsfan]

Uh, Cortland Finnegan, a guy who's probably going to the pro-bowl starts for Tennessee? Yeah, he was a 7th rounder, but he's a damn good corner. Nick Harper, former Colt, is on the other side, who's decent. Didn't have to look to know either of those guys started for the Titans. Your point is valid, but it's not like Tennessee runs scrubs out there at corner. A dominating pass rusher should be the first priority, but a top corner on one side opens up a lot of things for a defense too. This team is in a position to add both in the upcoming offseason. There are 3 loaded positions in this upcoming draft - 3-4 OLB, OT and CB. The Pats could use one of each, and they have the picks to address all three. There is some nice talent at the top of the class at safety too, so if Cassel can net them a pick, they could address all four positions with legit talents in the first two rounds, to add to the already solid young core in place on defense. Free agency will boast some solid players available too. There's no need to settle for just one piece of the puzzle this offseason - this defense can return to elite status immediately.

Its like I said in another thread. The titans will beat the jets because they can rush just 4, and get great pressure. We're rushing 5, and 6 at times, and not knocking ther QB down. Oh, and Cortland Finnegan is a badass for a little guy. I may not like the titans, but i'll take finnegan, and chris johnson on the pats anyday.

 

[nashvillepatsfan]

I hear what he's saying, but I'm a little sick of the Hobbs hating. Samuel didnt do crap in his first 3 yrs, same as Hobbs. Yet for some reason, people think Samuel is SO much better than Hobbs, only because he Had 10 int's in one season. Does anyone remember how he got the int's? There was a thread on here that had a pictoral breakdown of each of his 10 int's, and it showed that all of them came from the same formation, same jumped route. I wish I could find the thread, I looked everywhere. It mustve been deleted, dammmit. Anyway, the thread showed how he struggled against certain formations, but was very good at reading this one formation. In other words, he's no Ty Law.

Anyway, Their numbers are similar in the first three years, and this is Hobbs fourth year. I think it's too early to call him a bust, or the guys they drafted this year for that matter. Samuel wasnt an overnight sensation.

Here's Samuels stats;
Asante Samuel - Philadelphia Eagles - Career Statistics - NFL - Yahoo! Sports

here's Hobbs;
Ellis Hobbs - New England Patriots - Career Statistics - NFL - Yahoo! Sports

and here's a nice thread for the Samuel lovers

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england.../10/83568-king-blames-samuel-tyrees-grab.html

GO Ellis :rocker:

 

[E Belichick Unum]

I hear what he's saying, but I'm a little sick of the Hobbs hating. Samuel didnt do crap in his first 3 yrs, same as Hobbs. Yet for some reason, people think Samuel is SO much better than Hobbs, only because he Had 10 int's in one season. Does anyone remember how he got the int's? There was a thread on here that had a pictoral breakdown of each of his 10 int's, and it showed that all of them came from the same formation, same jumped route. I wish I could find the thread, I looked everywhere. It mustve been deleted, dammmit. Anyway, the thread showed how he struggled against certain formations, but was very good at reading this one formation. In other words, he's no Ty Law.

Anyway, Their numbers are similar in the first three years, and this is Hobbs fourth year. I think it's too early to call him a bust, or the guys they drafted this year for that matter. Samuel wasnt an overnight sensation.

Here's Samuels stats;
Asante Samuel - Philadelphia Eagles - Career Statistics - NFL - Yahoo! Sports

here's Hobbs;
Ellis Hobbs - New England Patriots - Career Statistics - NFL - Yahoo! Sports

and here's a nice thread for the Samuel lovers

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england.../10/83568-king-blames-samuel-tyrees-grab.html

GO Ellis :rocker:

Hobbs isn't a bust, he just isn't very good, but the lack of a pass rush is disturbing. Is it me or have the Pats just stopped blitzing? When you get burnt the way the Patriods secondary has been getting toasted an imaginative blitz or two is a way to slow down the passing attack. Dom Capers was supposed to be some kind of a mad blitz machine, but the Pats have run far fewer of them this year. Take the 3rd and 15 from last week, a few years ago the Pats line 11 up at the line and make sure the Jets don't have time to pick up 15 yards, instead they rush 5 and Vrable misses a chip on the TE, he picks up 15 1/2 yards.

The secondary sucks, very probably the worst in the league. The Dl isn't getting pressure on the QB like it used to. The middle of the zone is always open at the worst times. It is a tribute to the coaching staff we are 6-4.

 

[JSn]

Watching the Steelers last night really made me appreciate how much the front line attack has to do with stopping/disrupting the passing game. Those guys are frikkin relentless.

 

[wdkantro2]

can u tell me who tennessee's starting corners are w/o looking?

now can u tell me who is on their d-line?

the titans have the best defense w/ no name cb's, the key is pressure, and its pressure up front...

the front 7 need more work, the cb's are fine

Cortland Finnegan is going to be a pro-bowler, and Hope has made big plays on defense the past two weeks.
Other than calling him a "dip****" and offering other reasons why our pass defense is so bad, I am yet to see anyone who has been able to prove his argument wrong.
Just because CHFF finally said something bad about the Pats doesn't mean they are stupid.

 

[Deus Irae]

Cortland Finnegan is going to be a pro-bowler, and Hope has made big plays on defense the past two weeks.
Other than calling him a "dip****" and offering other reasons why our pass defense is so bad, I am yet to see anyone who has been able to prove his argument wrong.
Just because CHFF finally said something bad about the Pats doesn't mean they are stupid.

The author's assertions are wrong. That doesn't make him stupid, it just makes his argument wrong and shows it to have been poorly thought out. Again, picking up

Wilson
Sanders
Hobbs
Samuel
Meriweather
Wheatley

is not bad drafting, even if Wheatley doesn't pan out.

 

[BradyManny]

The author's assertions are wrong. That doesn't make him stupid, it just makes his argument wrong and shows it to have been poorly thought out. Again, picking up

Wilson
Sanders
Hobbs
Samuel
Meriweather
Wheatley

is not bad drafting, even if Wheatley doesn't pan out.

I'd toss Richardson in there too - he's a 6th rounder who has contributed in nickel and dime packages.

Which gets to the larger point - the expectation that every draft pick is going to pan out is absurd. On EEI a few weeks ago they were talking about how some crazy number like 50% of all players taking in the first 3 rounds were not on the team that selected them after a few seasons. Basically, they were getting at the point that drafting - even in the early rounds - is about a 50/50 chance of getting a player who can play. Yet, you have people on this forum calling Shawn Crable a bust b/c he was a 3rd rounder switching positions and trying to get playing time on a squad that won every regular season game last year. I think the expectations of draft picks need to change a little bit.

 

[JSn]

On EEI a few weeks ago they were talking about how some crazy number like 50% of all players taking in the first 3 rounds were not on the team that selected them after a few seasons. Basically, they were getting at the point that drafting - even in the early rounds - is about a 50/50 chance of getting a player who can play.

It would be interesting to know if there are some positions that are easier to draft than others. I would guess D-Linemen and LB's might be easier to getright than QB's and WR's.

 

[Deus Irae]

I'd toss Richardson in there too - he's a 6th rounder who has contributed in nickel and dime packages.

Which gets to the larger point - the expectation that every draft pick is going to pan out is absurd. On EEI a few weeks ago they were talking about how some crazy number like 50% of all players taking in the first 3 rounds were not on the team that selected them after a few seasons. Basically, they were getting at the point that drafting - even in the early rounds - is about a 50/50 chance of getting a player who can play. Yet, you have people on this forum calling Shawn Crable a bust b/c he was a 3rd rounder switching positions and trying to get playing time on a squad that won every regular season game last year. I think the expectations of draft picks need to change a little bit.

1.)

I didn't use Richardson or Wilhite because neither of them have shown me that they are legitimate NFL 'guys', and I wanted to give the benefit of the doubt to the author in order to show that, even with that benefit, he was wrong.


2.)

One of the things that has happened with the onslaught of fantasy football is that every FF geek now thinks he knows what he's talking about when it comes to things like the draft. They would have you believe that they'd have drafted nothing but HOF and Pro Bowl caliber players, all the way through the 7 rounds of every draft. None of them would ever have drafted Ryan Leaf, in the first round or the last, and every one of them knew that Tom Brady was going to become the best QB in the NFL.

When you couple the FF mentality with an article as poorly thought out as the one this thread centers around, you get a bunch of internet geeks who suddenly think they should be replacing Pioli because "they" wouldn't have missed on that 3rd pick of the 6th round. They overlook the obvious reality that every team in the NFL passed on that player for 5+ rounds.

 

[Clonamery]

1.)
2.)

One of the things that has happened with the onslaught of fantasy football is that every FF geek now thinks he knows what he's talking about when it comes to things like the draft. They would have you believe that they'd have drafted nothing but HOF and Pro Bowl caliber players, all the way through the 7 rounds of every draft. None of them would ever have drafted Ryan Leaf, in the first round or the last, and every one of them knew that Tom Brady was going to become the best QB in the NFL.

When you couple the FF mentality with an article as poorly thought out as the one this thread centers around, you get a bunch of internet geeks who suddenly think they should be replacing Pioli because "they" wouldn't have missed on that 3rd pick of the 6th round. They overlook the obvious reality that every team in the NFL passed on that player for 5+ rounds.

Arrgggh, so true...

 

[JSn]

None of them would ever have drafted Ryan Leaf, in the first round or the last, and every one of them knew that Tom Brady was going to become the best QB in the NFL.

You should have added "but would have picked him at #199 as a stealth measure", lol. Obviously no one knew for sure what he had. Just like Cassel and most of us.