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Tell me again why this wouldnt work?

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Turd Furguson, Oct 24, 2007.

  1. Turd Furguson

    Turd Furguson Rookie

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    Adopting a national sales tax as our one means of taxation?


    Repeal all income taxes and just be taxed on what you consume. Wouldnt that be the fairest method of taxation for everyone? And it would eliminate a lot of beaurocratic waste to boot.
  2. FreeTedWilliams

    FreeTedWilliams pfadmins PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    Because it would greatly raise the amount of tax paid by...

    illegals
    criminals
    rich Democrat Senators from Massachusetts whose money comes from their (or in Kerry's case, someone else's) family fortunes.


    and the biggest thing is that it would eliminate the government's ability to make you do things by giving you "tax incentives" for certain activities. Think about it, who would be most effected by this. Universities who recieve Billons of dollars to further the left's indoctrination on our youth, hybrid cars, mortgage companies, banks, etc. I'm sure that people would alos revolt against their property, sales, and excise taxes, if they could no longer "write them off".

    Remember, they are smarter than you, and they must tell you how to live!
  3. Turd Furguson

    Turd Furguson Rookie

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    It amazes me that so many people go along with that. Not the "government is smarter than me and I will yield" but the "government is smarter than the unwashed masses and they must be mothered". i.e the typical bleeding heart libber.


    Come on libbers, tell me why this is a bad idea?
  4. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    The answers will be :

    - It would slow the economy as it would create a disincentive to spend.
    - It would be unfair to tax the poor for food and clothes.
    - It would create a black market for untaxed items.
    - It would make stores tax collectors and require some form of oversight.

    My answers are to those are :

    - Spending is never a problem for Americans and we'd all have more money to begin with as our current deductions would be in our paychecks.
    - It would be easy to have "need to live" items tax free, you could also tax luxury items at a higher rate.
    - Probably would somewhat but not enough to have a significant effect.
    - Same as previous, whatever oversight is needed would be no bigger than the current IRS.

    Agree with FTW that it would reduce the power of government to control our lives which is why it won't happen.
  5. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    - It would lead to a barter system and make the black market far stronger
    - It would affect sales and jobs simply because people would buy used items whenever possible to avoid the hefty taxes
    - You would still need a massive IRS to make sure stores are paying their sales tax and to investigate the black market
    - We would have to address sales tax on necessities, especially for the working poor
    - The tax would be enormous, especially after adding state and city taxes on top of it
    - If mfg's had to pay sales tax on raw materials, it would result in a multiplier affect on the price of products.
    - It would encourage saving, which is good, but on the other hand spending is what drives the economy.
    - Many European countries already rely heavily on sales taxes for revenues (VAT), and their growth does not compare with ours.
    - It would be at least as easy to raise taxes as it is under our current system.
    - The fuzzy math used for a national sales tax doesn't really work, as this link shows:

    http://www.fairtaxation.org/other/nationalsalestax.php
  6. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    Then reality would set in that the rich do, indeed, pay almost the entire income tax in this country.
  7. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It's sensible and the Democrats would never stand for it.
  8. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Not as a percentage of disposable income, but you like the math that takes pity on the wealthy. I like the math that protects the poor.
  9. bmf31c

    bmf31c Rookie

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    We have national tax here in Germany, as Patters mentioned, the VAT. It's 19% on everything but food. Thankfully we can buy forms at $3 each to avoid paying it, but it's a pain in the ass. With the dollar in the toilet I can't afford to do anything off post anyway. The economy is dying here.

    One of my other major interests other than sports is cars. A huge deal on the horizon is going to be the cost of European cars coming into the US. Due to the strong euro and weak dollar BMW, Mercedes and VW et al are going to get hammered on profit margins. A lot of these companies are working on lengthy pre-negotiated contracts that have set exchange rates on them. When these contracts are up the US headquarters of the companies are going to get killed trying to re-negotiate at exchange rates that have doubled.
  10. QuiGon

    QuiGon Banned

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    I never really understood this contention... most states have sales taxes but we aren't seeing a widespread black market for groceries, are we..? Even items that are heavily taxed (gasoline, cigaretts, alcohol) don't exactly have thriving black markets.
    Heh heh... a liberal arguing that higher taxes hurt sales and jobs... nice to see you've become infected with at least a little common sense :D
    Well, this is already happening, now isn't it..?
  11. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    Euro growth has everything to do with their socialist structure of government, and thier taxation of all things. They don't use a national sales, or consumption tax singularly.
  12. QuiGon

    QuiGon Banned

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    Personally, I think it's high time the poor start paying their fair share for all the benefits they get from our economy.

    Say you have 2 individuals: One a married person, 3 kids, making $125,000 a year, paying $40,000 in income taxes. The other is an unmarried welfare momma with 4 kids (#5 on the way) receiving $38,000 in government benefits (food stamps, housing, welfare). Which one of these 2 is not paying their fair share...?
  13. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    So, what do you propose?
  14. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    You can phrase and wordsmith it however you like - the fact of the matter is that the rich pay almost the entire income tax. And the % that the sales tax would have to be shows that. Whether it's right or wrong isn't relevant to my point.
  15. QuiGon

    QuiGon Banned

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    Well I always favored a flat tax. Your first $18,000 is tax free. After that, every dime is taxed at a flat rate for everyone. Form 1040 would be 4 lines:

    1 - Enter how much you made
    2 - Subtract $18,000
    3 - Multiply line 2 by X%
    4 - Subtact federal withholding - this is the amount of your refund or what you owe.
  16. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Why should a rich person have to pay $X more than a poor person for the exact same service? That I would think would be unfair to your way of thinking. In other words, if the tax rate is 20%, someone earning $1 million would pay 100x more than someone earning 10k. I think if you want to address fairness, you don't look at the tax system. You do things like making sure that the rich can buy bigger houses, better land, fancier cars, take more vacations, etc., and we have that already.
  17. QuiGon

    QuiGon Banned

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    Ah Patters, my good friend, once again you demonstrate your mathematical shortcomings. In my system the person earning $10k pays zero so we can't say the $1 million person pays 100 times more.

    But let's forget about my $18k exemption and accept your statement that someone making $1 million pays 100 times as much as someone making $10,000... I like that idea that a heck of a lot more than the current setup. It would be nice to see such a person contributing something instead of constantly being a leech on society.
    But the rich pay their taxes, so I don't begrudge them their luxuries with the money leftover. What's unfair is the number of poor people in society who are a constant drain on the rest of us and contribute absolutely nothing to society.
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2007
  18. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The Poor People:
    At one time I knew what "Really Poor" meant I would come home from school and see my mother sitting at the kitchen table crying because the only thing to eat in the house was one egg, we used to steal the electricity from the tenement house hallway we couldn't do it until dark that is when the hall lights came on, we went all day without electricity, every day, myself and some other "poor kids" would break into the Wilson Meat Packing Co freight trains and steal Hams, I would bring one home my mother would ask where I got it, I would say "we helped a guy move some stuff and he gave them to us" she would turn her head and cry some more, she knew damn right well I stole it but we were so hungry we would have eaten the mice that ran around in our bedrooms if we could catch them, I stole a box of hot dogs from an A&P market, a Cambridge Cop say me running home with them, he knew I stole them, he ran up my stairs and banged on the door I opened the door and he saw my mother putting them in the frying pan, he turned around and left, he knew.
    THIS SH!T ALL TOOK PLACE DURING THE MID 1930's

    Just before I retired and left Mass I lived next door to one of todays "Poor People" I worked an afternoon shift, I would leave my house and this Poor Person was always there to see me off, he would sit on his porch with a six pack of beer litening to his radio, he always waved goodbye to me and smiled, his house was full of food (food stamps) they helped him pay his rent and his fuel costs, he had nice shiny teeth just like Pelosi (Medicaid) a check was delivered to his house each month (unemployment) in the summer while I was working my a$s off he was laying in the sand at Revere Beach with a big cooler full of food and beer, then one day I realized that this guy wasn't the stupid bastard that I thought he was in fact he was a genius not only was he living better than me I WAS PAYING FOR IT.

    I wonder what my mother would think if she could see what they consider "Poor" today.

    :bricks:
  19. Stokes

    Stokes Rookie

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    Its more fair since it is a fixed percentage of income across the board. For a 20% tax rate the person making a million pays $200,000. Right now a person making a million is in the 50% tax bracket (I think the 50% bracket starts around there) and pays $500,000, so in that respect its a better deal for the rich person. That said I still don't know enough about the ramifications of a flat tax to say if it is really a good idea, but I do know I like the idea of dissolving the IRS!
  20. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I believe in a progressive tax system, since I think that is the fairest system. The fact is that the rich benefit out of proportion from many of the intangible or less tangible aspects of our society. For instance, we all contribute to a mostly orderly and civil society, but some people profit out of proportion. We all get to enjoy our land and water, the but rich have the time and luxury of enjoying it more often and in larger quantities. We all contribute to building a national infrastructure out of which the richer you are the greater the benefit. We all contributed to building this country, but some of the wealth can be directly credited to policies such as slavery, denying women equal rights, and so on.

    My point is, the nature of life is not always fair, and it strikes me as avaricious and immoral to address inequity in our society by making the tax system more fair for the wealthy. In fact, on issues of fairness, I'm not terribly concerned about the wealthy at all, and those who are have the same mentality as those who defended the King of England in 1776. The wealthy can take care of themselves, and I regard as pathetic when middle class people kowtow to the rich, and ignore real issues of unfairness, such as little kids who have no health insurance or old people who can barely get by on Social Security or disabled veterans who are largely ignored and left in decrepit institutions.

    As far as the IRS goes, whatever tax system we have, we'll still have to have an agency that monitors and collects taxes.

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