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Not sure about that. Mills will likely be an H Back like Byars was and we need 3 TE to play a 2 TE offense.JD10367 said:Hence the drafting of Ben Watson, Garrett Mills, and David Thomas.
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CLICK HERE to Register for a free account and login for a smoother ad-free experience. It's easy, and only takes a few moments.Not sure about that. Mills will likely be an H Back like Byars was and we need 3 TE to play a 2 TE offense.JD10367 said:Hence the drafting of Ben Watson, Garrett Mills, and David Thomas.
BelichickFan said:Not sure about that. Mills will likely be an H Back like Byars was and we need 3 TE to play a 2 TE offense.
JD10367 said:Yes, but if Watson proves to be the stud he's been hoped to be, and Mills can block and catch from his position, and Thomas is at least good enough to be a second TE, then it's a lot easier to pick up a 3rd TE than to pay Graham what he'll want.
Flying Fungi said:I respectfully disagree.
fgssand said:I think Graham is certainly a much better blocker, however, Witten has really good numbers and stays healthy. I have to say Witten is the better TE at this point, because he is able to play football every game.
Witten, 24, caught 87 passes for 980 yards in 2004. Last year, he had 66 catches for 757 yards. Witten has not missed an ygames over the past two years due to injury.
Graham, caught 30 passes for 364 yards in 2004. Last Year he caught 16 passes for 235 yards. Graham, in his four year career has often been injured.
I would love to see us sign Graham for a contract close to Wittens though. Nothing at all worng with 3 or 4 quality TE's - especially with the versitile role Mills will play if he can make the team t obegin with.
fgssand said:I think Graham is certainly a much better blocker, however, Witten has really good numbers and stays healthy. I have to say Witten is the better TE at this point, because he is able to play football every game.
Witten, 24, caught 87 passes for 980 yards in 2004. Last year, he had 66 catches for 757 yards. Witten has not missed an ygames over the past two years due to injury.
Graham, caught 30 passes for 364 yards in 2004. Last Year he caught 16 passes for 235 yards. Graham, in his four year career has often been injured.
I would love to see us sign Graham for a contract close to Wittens though. Nothing at all worng with 3 or 4 quality TE's - especially with the versitile role Mills will play if he can make the team t obegin with.
maverick4 said:For me, it is a waste of time to argue over Dan Graham's pass catching abilities. The bottom line is he is rarely used as a receiver, or as a goal-line target, so his use as a double play threat is over-valued.
Consider this analogy/example:
The Steelers used to have Randal-El, a receiver who could double as a quarterback. Some people could argue that his versatility made him worth a premium price, even as his numbers as a #2 receiver were hardly impressive at all. So, the Redskins paid this guy top dollar as a #2 WR, even though his production has never been great, and his use as a potential QB will only apply for maybe one trick play every week.
Dan Graham is a great blocker, but he is rarely used as a double block/catch threat. He is used primarily as a blocker. In my opinion, we could save money and get similar Graham production by signing a cheap offensive tackle to play TE, who also has non-horrible hands.
It would not make any sense for this regime to pay Graham anything close to Witten-type money.
JoeSixPat said:Of course, if Dallas had dealt with OL line injuries last season and Witten still produced, I suppose that would probably undermine that theory.
JoeSixPat said:I've long felt that after everyone initially failed to recognize Graham's blocking skills, it became fashionable for a lot of fans to wax poetic about how great it is to have a TE who can play like an OL, rather than a TE who can play like a TE.
The pendulum has swung so far in the opposite direction that many fans seem to equate his value to that of a TE who's good for 60-90 receptions a season - i.e. worth $4mil - $6 mil a season depending on which contract report is correct. (The Boston Herald reported 7 years $29 mil).
I know our OL has had injuried, requiring Graham to use those blocking skills more, but other teams have had OL injuries as well, and their TEs still put up signficant numbers.
The bottom line is that the Patriots are not going to pay Graham anything remotely close to what Witten received, and if Graham is expecting that, don't expect to see him back next year.
DaBruinz said:JSP - A few things.
1) I like Witten, but he's not near the blocker that Graham is. He's adequate at best.
2) Out of Gates, Gonzalez, Witten, McMichael, or any other TE, please name one (other than Watson) that had BOTH starting OTs go out in the same season for any length of time as Graham did last year with Light and Ashworth going down early (though Ashworth did come back). Better yet, name one that had their #1 and #2 RTs go down as the Pats did for Graham's 1st 2 years.
3) Gates, Gonzalez, Witten, and McMichael are all in the top 3 receivers on their respective teams. The Patriots vary based on their game plan. Heck, Deion Branch became the 1st WR since Troy Brown in 2002 to catch more than 60 passes. And Branch was THE goto guy and only caught 78. Much like Gates is the Primary Receiver in SD. And Gonzalez in KC. McMichaels is the #2 guy in Miami and Witten is Drewpy's safety blanket, much like Coates was when Drewpy was here with the Pats.
My point in all this is that you aren't giving credit to Graham for being a team player and doing what was asked of him by working on his blocking skills. He probably sacrificed some performance bonuses in the process since he was a pass-catching TE coming out of college.
Oh, and one last thing. Graham has dropped only 1 pass in the last two years. That's a marked improvement from his rookie year when he dropped 7.
I think that Graham is probably worth 3-4 million a year. Particularly if the O-line solidifies and he's allowed to pass catch more than 10% of the time which is what has been the case.
BTW, one only has to look at the start of the 2004 season to see the potential that Graham has. The only reason his receptions dropped off was that he was being asked to block, almost exclusively, while Gorin solidified himself in the position after Klemm and then Ashworht went down.
JD10367 said:Hence the drafting of Ben Watson, Garrett Mills, and David Thomas.
JoeSixPat said:As they say on the big show, "you're making my point".
The very fact that we're still using "Graham" and "potential" in the same sentence suggests that 21st pick of the 2002 draft hasn't lived up to expectations.
JoeSixPat said:I don't think I ever suggested Witten or any other TE was as good a blocker as Graham so I'm not going to bother with that one.
But if blocking were the end all, be all we'd have extra offensive linemen lining up at TE. That being said, the Patriots offensive schemes do benefit from good blocking, but that doesn't change the fact that offensive production, not blocking, is what sets the market value higher for TEs.
JoeSixPat said:If you don't believe me look at the highest paid TEs in the game and see if you can find a common element there.... yup, you guessed it - they all have pretty impressive offensive production. So even if the Pats value Graham's good blocking and average pass catching production highly, they're not going to pay more than the market requires.
JoeSixPat said:As to your points about injuries, again you made my point.
Witten did well even though the Dallas OL was a mess last year with LT Flozel Adams missing 10 games and Marco Rivera having a sub par injury plagied season, along with a C by committee of Al Johnson and Andre Gurode to allow a near league worst 50 sacks - Does that qualify?
JoeSixPat said:The Chiefs also had OL injuries last year too which is why Gonzales had to bloclk more and saw a drop in production of "only" 78 receptions last year, but of course we don't want to hear about that because its a good excuse as to why Graham hasn't met his potential yet.
JoeSixPat said:If your point is that one must have two healthy, skilled TEs to allow one or both to have above average offensive production and that Graham and Watson haven't been on the field together all that much, you fall a little short there as well. There are plenty of TEs who do well pretty much on their own, both in the recent and not so recent past... though I suppose it is possible we've all underestimated the blocking skills of Rod Rutledge and Mike Bartrum all these years... how else could Ben Coates have done what he did?
JoeSixPat said:In terms of dropped passes, I'm not quite sure where the stats are, but someone else boasted that Graham only dropped 3 passes last year. I don't think Mike Vrabel had any dropped passes, which again raises the point of why the team looks to an LB in TD situations as much as they did with Graham.
JoeSixPat said:I'm really not trying to bash Graham - just explaining why I don't think his market value is anywhere near as high as the true top tier TEs - and no matter how much we value blocking, the "market" really does not, - certainly not at the expense of TDs and offensive production - and we should not expect to have to pay for Graham as it if the market did.
JoeSixPat said:In terms of dropped passes, I'm not quite sure where the stats are, but someone else boasted that Graham only dropped 3 passes last year. I don't think Mike Vrabel had any dropped passes, which again raises the point of why the team looks to an LB in TD situations as much as they did with Graham.