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Taxes

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Patters, Apr 17, 2007.

  1. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    In 1954, our progressive tax rate was from 14% to 91%. 1954? That's when Eisenhower was president. The Dems proceeded to cut taxes and so did the Republicans. Under both Democrats and Republicans, regardless of tax rates, we've had times with good economies and times with bad economies.

    The special thing that Reagan did is he increased deficit spending so much and he cut taxes for the wealthy so much that it made it more difficult to cut taxes for the middle class.

    The Republicans have successfully convinced many people to favor a socialist mentality where everyone pays roughly the same thing (so those in power -- in our country, the rich -- make out). They don't want to subject tax policy to market forces, wherein taxes on the wealthy could climb until it had a detrimental effect on the economy.

    They've further convinced people that there's massive waste. There may well be massive waste, but normally when we see pork barrel numbers they're no more than say $20 billion or roughly $100/person. There may be things we can cut -- the military, social services, infrastructure, etc., but those programs have very powerful constituencies so cutting them dramatically is unrealistic.

    The only way to reduce the income tax burden on the middle class (and poor) is to raise taxes on the wealthy. The good news, for those of you who have special place in your heart for the very wealthy, is that if we raise their taxes too much we may be forced to lower them again at a later point.

    I think by raising taxes on the wealthy, providing tax cuts to the poor and middle class and tax incentives for them to invest in their retirement, we can do the greatest good. Further, we can set up charities to help the very wealthy in the event they are having difficulty making monthly payments on their Ferraris.

    Tax links (Wikipedia):
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_Revenue_Code_of_1954
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_States

    Economic performance link (Forbes):
    http://www.forbes.com/2004/07/20/cx_da_0720presidents_print.html
     
  2. FreeTedWilliams

    FreeTedWilliams pfadmins PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    Patters you assume the poor are poor mostly due to some unforeseen circumstance. The poor are mainly poor because they choose to be. How else can you explain people without jobs, when everyday unskill laborers who don't even speak English get jobs paying between 8-14 dollars an hour. They do not work, they reamin uneducated in a country that provides free education.

    No matter how you try to redistribute the wealth, it will never work, because the rich are rich because (Paris Hilton and Ted Kennedy aside) they worked for it. and vice versa.
     
  3. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    FreeTed, of course there are lazy bums, and I'm not especially concerned about them, but isn't it obvious that there's no correlation between hard work and pay? Sure, some people work really hard and truly earn every penny. Some of them get rich, some don't. On the hand, some people are really lazy, and work as little as possible. Some are rich, some aren't. There's no natural fairness in our economic system.

    I'm not looking to redistribute wealth. I'm looking for a tax policy that serves the greater good. Regardless of tax policy, it redistributes wealth (unless you favor a policy where we all pay the exact same $ amount).
     
  4. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Pro Bowl Player

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    #80 Jersey

    My fellow americans,

    unless you are like me, ULTRA rich, you are not getting tax cuts...you are getting tax credits...

    Those of you who love the republicans (aka my b!tchez) because you think they cut your taxes make me laugh ..... Listen .... The guys and I crack up after a good Polo match while spitting caviar for distance about how much easier it is to make a 3 million dollar contribution, than to be taxed 5 million.

    Oh....then we get such a laugh about moving out 'offices' offshore to the islands, so the United States sees less of my revenue. But wait...it gets even funnier.....

    There are only two kinds of people that actually benefit from this....Me and the politician.....HA!...isn't that a gas? You people vote them into office.

    Keep voting republican! Keep the dream of becoming an ELITE alive, thats what fuels this whole thing. You!

    See you all in the hamptons!
    Hoity Toity Diver
     
  5. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    That's life dude. Do you think Paris Hilton, or Tom Cruise deserve to be millionare's? I work harder in a day than they do in a lifetime. I don't want to steal, or take their money from them. If you want to give your hard earned cash to someone, go ahead, just don't take mine too. We already give the poor enough. The more you give them, the less they do for themselves. I see it everyday. The people in the system think they deserve everything they get, and have no inclination to improve their condition on their own. Matter of fact, most work less because they realize it behooves their situation. Some people truly do need it. I have some elderly tenants, one with Parkinson's desease, another that is crippled. Those people fine, but the mother, and 26 year old male son, who pay $79 for a two bedroom, don't deserve didly! The taxpayer paid for her to have a gastric bypass surgery, and all she does is watch TV on her brand knew bedroom set, and HDTV, while I foot the bill. Go to work!
     
  6. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Like I said, RW, I'm not concerned about lazy bums. I'm more concerned about making our society better by helping out the middle class and the working (or legitimately needy) poor. Of course, when you help out a large groups, there will be a few lemons. I'm simply saying let's have a tax policy that rewards hard work and saving, and let's cut taxes for the working middle class and poor. The only way to do that is to increase taxes on the rich, but they have many economic options that most of us don't have access to. (For instance, the New York Times had an article today explaining how hedge fund managers can invest in offshore nontaxable funds and avoid paying taxes for five years, which has the net effect of lower their taxes by around 10%.)
     
  7. QuiGon

    QuiGon Banned

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    I've said it before and I guess I have to say it again:

    A conservative sees taxes as a means to generate revenue for the government and, as such, the goal should be to maximize revenue.

    A liberal sees taxes as a socialistic policy that should redistribute wealth from the rich who have earned it to the poor who refuse to work for it.

    A businessman making $150k pays $40k in taxes. An unemployed welfare momma with 9 kids takes in $40k per year from the government in welfare, food stams and health care. Which one of these two is not paying their fair share...?
     
  8. PatsWSB47

    PatsWSB47 Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    #12 Jersey

    I'll never live in the Hamptons so when you're there could you say Hi to Bill and Hillary for me?
     
  9. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    How about reducing government expenditures, and lowering middle class taxes, and leaving the tax rate for the rich the same? The result would be the same, as middle class earners would have more money. Of course, for people in your bus, reducing government is never in the cards. It's the fricken rich dammit! We gotta get em! I'm opposed to rasing any taxes. I'm only in favor of reducing taxes, and reducing government. We spent what? $2.9 Trillion? How about spending $2.5, and giving that $400 billion to middle class earners?
     
  10. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Pro Bowl Player

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    #80 Jersey

    I suck at word problems.....lets see....How about the buisness man who collects a $20 million paycheck, then pays 40% in taxes, then lays off 15,000 workers so he can outsources his jobs to ..... India ..... for another tax cut?

    How about him?
     
  11. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    If you're a rich SOB, then congrats, and stay out of my wallet. If you want to help the people I see everyday, of which at least 60% qualify as lazy, and undeserving, then give YOUR MONEY. :D
     
  12. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    It's a waste of time QuiGon. Liberals know what you're saying, they just don't care.
     
  13. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Tax policy redistributes wealth regardless. If you want to avoid that than everyone should pay the exact same dollar amount, not a percent, which of course is absurd.

    Of course you would use that comparison. That's pure politics. I could post a similar comparison that might appeal to you, such as Ted Kennedy v. the hard working, small businessman. Or better yet, Snoop Dog, Jessie Jackson, George Soros, and Al Sharpton. But, that's just playing politics. All I'm saying is that if we want to see taxes reduced on the middle class, there's precedent from both Democrats and Republicans to have the wealthy pay a larger share.
     
  14. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    How about who? If it's cheaper to do business somewhere else, then he has the right to move his company elsewhere. If he lives in this country, he pays taxes in this country. Last I checked, and corporation doesn't pay income taxes, people do.
     
  15. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You're not really making a point, RW. I'm not talking about the lazy bums. I'm talking about honest, hard-working people. We can leave the lazy bums out of the equation for now. They represent a special case.
     
  16. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Pro Bowl Player

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    #80 Jersey

    Rdubbs.....I'm taking my hard line Conservative stance on this:

    Its my money. I can do whatever I want with it.

    If you are like me, take advantage of the 'laws' we have set up. Enjoy the good life!

    The american dream of going to college, working hard, earning a living and building a family is dying. Its all part of our plan to 'own' you. now.....whose side do you wanna be on?

    (note: Heavy sarcasm in above paragraphs)
     
  17. PatsWSB47

    PatsWSB47 Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    #12 Jersey

    As bad as some of the rich are and as good as we would feel if we could stick it to them, they do pay 75% of the taxes now I have heard. The problem is that there aren't enough 20 million dollar paychecks to put a dent into solving the problem.
     
  18. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Pro Bowl Player

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    #80 Jersey

    People who worked for a compnay that gets laid off so an exec can get a tax break pay(ed) taxes.....
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2007
  19. QuiGon

    QuiGon Banned

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    Tax policy is going to redistribute wealth but the difference between people like you and people like me is you think that should be the purpose of taxes, whereas I see it as an unintended consequence.
    To say I want to see "taxes reduced on the middle class" implies I have no preference regarding the other classes. Please don't presume to speak for me regarding what I do and do not want to see. You're not smart enough to put words in my mouth (2 cents to Steve DeOssie). I want to see taxes reduced for everyone. I also want to see government spending reduced, starting with social programs.
     
  20. QuiGon

    QuiGon Banned

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    Anyone besides me ever notice that liberals are always...

    1) Whining about how poorly paid employees are, and writing laws (and supporting labor unions) to increase employee pay
    2) Whining about how low corporate taxes are and all the loopholes for the wealthy.

    (1) and (2) are fair enough, but then they have the audacity to:

    3) Blame Republicans when jobs and factories move out of country

    Yeah that makes sense :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2007

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