Welcome to PatsFans.com

Taxes Must DOUBLE To Pay Bush’s Budget

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Holy Diver, Jan 17, 2007.

  1. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    10,800
    Likes Received:
    6
    Ratings:
    +6 / 0 / -0

    Interesting quote from the comptroller.


    http://www.rawstory.com/news/2007/Government_watchdog_says_control_spending_or_0115.html

    "The picture I will lay out for you today is not a pretty one and it’s getting worse with the passage of time," said David M. Walker, Comptroller General of the United States, in a Thursday morning hearing of the Senate's Budget Committee. "Continuing on our current fiscal path would gradually erode, if not suddenly damage, our economy, our standard of living, and ultimately even our domestic tranquility and our national security," he warned.
  2. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2005
    Messages:
    37,504
    Likes Received:
    24
    Ratings:
    +29 / 0 / -5

    If Bush causes the Taxes to go up he won't grt any trouble from the democrats, raising taxes is right up their alley.

    Bush has really lost it if he does anything to cause higher taxes, the Democrats will LOVE it but they will blame him :singing:

    Is Bush turning into a Democrat, here are the two big things that make Bush look like "Jimmy Carter"

    1--Slobbering, Gushing and Fawning all over the Criminal Illegal Alien.

    2--Now he is going to cause Taxes to go up.

    This could cause Aunt Nancy to "Have Sex With The President" she might even try talking him into running for a third term.
    :bricks:
  3. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    10,800
    Likes Received:
    6
    Ratings:
    +6 / 0 / -0

    Ha!.....I'm predicting a third term. He'll claim wartime powers.
  4. Pujo

    Pujo Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2005
    Messages:
    6,572
    Likes Received:
    4
    Ratings:
    +4 / 0 / -0

    Bush prefers the even uglier alternative to raising taxes: increasing debt.
  5. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    31,088
    Likes Received:
    29
    Ratings:
    +37 / 2 / -3

    #24 Jersey

    Tax receipts, not tax rates. Growing the economy and slowing spending rates would get it done without a disaster. The biggest problems are social security and, especially, medicare. We need to encourage people to save for retirement so that we can reduce the growth of these items.
  6. Pujo

    Pujo Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2005
    Messages:
    6,572
    Likes Received:
    4
    Ratings:
    +4 / 0 / -0

    Don't forget mounting debt to offset that modest growth.
  7. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    31,088
    Likes Received:
    29
    Ratings:
    +37 / 2 / -3

    #24 Jersey

    :confused:

    Not sure what you're saying there. As a Republican, though, I don't disagree with the problem although I have a problem with the BS jab at Bush. Although he has exacerbated the problem, it wouldn't have been that much better had he never been elected.
  8. Pujo

    Pujo Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2005
    Messages:
    6,572
    Likes Received:
    4
    Ratings:
    +4 / 0 / -0

    Are you kidding? How much money has the war in Iraq cost, again? No doubt a Democratic admin would be spending left and right, but they'd be hard-pressed to spend the kind of money Bush has in Iraq.

    And besides, if it were Dems squandering money I'd be blasting them, too, I don't like others spending my money.
  9. Real World

    Real World Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2006
    Messages:
    26,287
    Likes Received:
    24
    Ratings:
    +26 / 0 / -1

    Hey, Bush has spent money like a liberal could never dream. EVERY administration wastes money, and NONE ever cut government, they only increase it. What Bush has done is mind boggling. He's the anti fiscal-conservative. Seriously, it's laughable when people call this guy a conservative in the common sense. He's a religious loon maybe, but not a conservative. Anyhow, how's this guy come to his conclusions? I thought I read an article that talked about us being balanced, annually that is, by 2010 or 2012? I know tax receipts are coming in higher than expected. Where's he come in with 2040? Now, I'm not trying to dispute his assessments, I'm merely curious as to how he came up with his figures. I'm a HUGE proponent of smaller, more fiscally sane government. I think most in here know that. Remember people, we're at close to $9 Trillion in national debt. As Austin Powers would say:

    Ouch baby, very ouch!
  10. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    31,088
    Likes Received:
    29
    Ratings:
    +37 / 2 / -3

    #24 Jersey

    The war is expensive but :

    1) Although it's cost a lot, it's cost is overstated as many of the costs (paying the military personnel, etc) would have been incurred in peace time too.

    2) It's a (big) one time cost (plus interest). As opposed to social security and medicare which never go away and have large growth rates. Sort of like if you took $25K out of a bank account to buy a car, that's a large expense. But it's much more "expensive" to take it out of the stock market and lose all the growth the money would have earned.
  11. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    31,088
    Likes Received:
    29
    Ratings:
    +37 / 2 / -3

    #24 Jersey

    It's all crap based on what you see the growth rate being. Clinton's numbers were basically false because his people was using unrealistic assumptions about the continuation of the dot com boom.

    The debt is a fairly decent % of GDP now, we're OK, but the continued growth of social security and, especially, medicare, are the big turds in the punch bowl.
  12. Pujo

    Pujo Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2005
    Messages:
    6,572
    Likes Received:
    4
    Ratings:
    +4 / 0 / -0

    How much are social security and medicare going to cost over the next, say 40 years?

    How much is the war in Iraq going to cost over the next 40 years (remember, we're borrowing to pay for it), including interest? The war may be a one-time thing, but the payments will go on for a long time.

    Somehow I bet both of those numbers will be significant.
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2007
  13. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    31,088
    Likes Received:
    29
    Ratings:
    +37 / 2 / -3

    #24 Jersey

    Well not paying for the war now is simply a choice that has been made and can change at any time. It's not an inherent cost. Bush, or any future President, could institute a war tax in which the cost is paid now - they won't but they could. Compared to the entitlements whose costs are simply going up at, especially medicare but ss too, a rate way higher than inflation.

    So while we have chosen to finance the war, that was/is/will be our choice. The entitlements are different as they have automatic increases.
  14. Real World

    Real World Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2006
    Messages:
    26,287
    Likes Received:
    24
    Ratings:
    +26 / 0 / -1

    Really? Then why are you so supportive of the massive tax dollar drain that is illegal immigration?

    To me, GW spending is mind boggling. I see BF's point regarding historical spending, but GW has really destroyed the bar on this one. He's fortunate that he's had better than expected tax revenues from a good economy. What's funny though is how people try to downplay the economy and call it crap. It's quite good. Especially when you consider where energy costs have been. The sad part in all this is that if GW had been slightly sensible with his spending, and had not gone into Iraq, we'd be talking about a good financial situation, and not a lousy one.
  15. Pujo

    Pujo Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2005
    Messages:
    6,572
    Likes Received:
    4
    Ratings:
    +4 / 0 / -0

    I don't support illegal immigration, I just don't think its impact is as big as certain people want it to be. Especially certain people who use cost as a macguffin for the real issue: they don't like people who aren't like them.
  16. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    10,800
    Likes Received:
    6
    Ratings:
    +6 / 0 / -0

    But the deteriorating situation in Iraq has caused the initial predictions to be off the mark by a scale that is difficult to fathom. The operation itself — the helicopters, the tanks, the fuel needed to run them, the combat pay for enlisted troops, the salaries of reservists and contractors, the rebuilding of Iraq — is costing more than $300 million a day, estimates Scott Wallsten, an economist in Washington.

    That translates into a couple of billion dollars a week and, over the full course of the war, an eventual total of $700 billion in direct spending.
  17. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    31,088
    Likes Received:
    29
    Ratings:
    +37 / 2 / -3

    #24 Jersey

    I'm not trying to support the war spending. The war would have ended LONG ago if I were in charge. I didn't care about Iraqis when it started andI still don't. But it's disingenuous, although technically correct, to call it "Bush's Budget" as most of it was inherited by him.

    One of the best things that could have happened for our finances would have been to partially privatize social security but that was blocked. That, alone, costs us all 12.4% out of our paychecks without before you even think about income tax. It's borderline ciminal.
  18. Real World

    Real World Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2006
    Messages:
    26,287
    Likes Received:
    24
    Ratings:
    +26 / 0 / -1

    Wow, you don't support illegal immigration? That's news to me. At least you've said so. At any rate, the costs are as significant as I've been saying, and will increase if amnesty is passed, and all the low income illegals become legals who will immidiately qualify for all low income benefits. Do the math.
  19. Real World

    Real World Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2006
    Messages:
    26,287
    Likes Received:
    24
    Ratings:
    +26 / 0 / -1


    That's what i peg the war cost to be somehwere near the end. Ouch!
  20. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    31,088
    Likes Received:
    29
    Ratings:
    +37 / 2 / -3

    #24 Jersey

    Sure, that's a lot.

    Guess how much social security costs ? In 2003 it was $483B. I added 7% a year, which is about what social security rises annually, and this year's bill would be $633B.

    So while your total war cost is certainly more than I think we should be incurring, it's about one year of social security which is an ongoing and rising number.
  21. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    10,800
    Likes Received:
    6
    Ratings:
    +6 / 0 / -0

    The initial cost estimates of the war were around 2 billion....they are now estimating 700 billion. Thats 350x the projection.


    if SS were to jump from the estimated 600 billion to 180 Trillion, then we might be comparing apples.
  22. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    31,088
    Likes Received:
    29
    Ratings:
    +37 / 2 / -3

    #24 Jersey

    Well, first, you have now switched the discussion from the financial problem to what we were thinking, they're different issues.

    Second, give that 7% growth rate time, SS will explode before your very eyes.
  23. Pujo

    Pujo Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2005
    Messages:
    6,572
    Likes Received:
    4
    Ratings:
    +4 / 0 / -0

    Well, we are just talking financial impact here, so apples to apples is dollars to dollars. We're not talking about the effectiveness of the war, it's usefuleness vs. social security, etc, just the cost.
  24. pats-blue

    pats-blue Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2004
    Messages:
    961
    Likes Received:
    2
    Ratings:
    +2 / 0 / -0

    I think this is actually a good debate here reading this...besides the jab at Bush at the begining which has been dropped so we can leave out the Clinton, Bush, Regan...lefty, righty BS and have a real debate. I will acknowledge that the DEM and REP references are something that is germain to this argument due to thier historical spending patterns.

    I will add my 2 cents...actually it is only about a penny and a half to stir the pot.

    First yeah the war spending (in dollars) is a black hole. But looking at it in totallity is thier some ROI with the money that is being paid to the defense contractors and thier workers? Along with the real estate market the high tech defense industry has put a lot of money into play in our economy. Now don't ge me wrong I DO NOT think it is close to "balancing out" in strictly monetary terms...but it isn't just like we will have put 800 Billion into a furnace and burned it up. It does have SOME positive effect on our economy (STRICTLY IN FINANCIAL TERMS).

    As far as illegal immigration?????? PLease! It is a HUGE drain on our economy. I will relay ONE instance that I personally was involved in...5 illegals are at an apartment complex....they are not here to work hard and the only American dream they are chasing is dealing drugs. To shorten the story basically they turn the apartment complex into the OK Corral and everyone of them gets shot. Those that don't look like they are dead right there get thrown in cars and pushed out at the steps of a local hospital.

    OK EVERYONE of them survives. 3 are AIR EVACed and taken to trauma centers two are dumped at local hospitals and are later transported to local trauma centers....it ended up being over $500,000 in medical bills for one incident. ONE! Half a MILLION dollars! Low and behold what did we get to charge them with? Discharge of a firearm in city limits. None of them wanted to press charges...so we had no "victims". Now that doesn't include the cost of police and medical personnel for the incident and the officers that had to sit with them in the hospital for 2 + weeks while they were in "custody" and well enough to be transfered to a prison hospital. I know the cost of the medical bills while my city was responsible for them was well over $500K and then I am sure it was much more than that after the fact until guess what happened to them? Flew back to Mexico on the taxpayers dime as they were deported.

    Now that is one incident. Believe me illegal immigration is a HUGE problem that costs much, much more than anyone including the media would have you believe.
  25. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2005
    Messages:
    37,504
    Likes Received:
    24
    Ratings:
    +29 / 0 / -5

  26. Real World

    Real World Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2006
    Messages:
    26,287
    Likes Received:
    24
    Ratings:
    +26 / 0 / -1

    [​IMG]



    The best part about it all is that these loser criminal scumbags will get off the plane, and walk back across the border a week later. The illegal immigration problem, and some people's inability to understand its severity, truly boggles the mind.
  27. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2005
    Messages:
    37,504
    Likes Received:
    24
    Ratings:
    +29 / 0 / -5

    Imagine telling the Junkies in the projects to "save for their retirement" :singing:
  28. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    31,088
    Likes Received:
    29
    Ratings:
    +37 / 2 / -3

    #24 Jersey

    I apologize for turning this into a SS discussion, I'll just say that SS and medicare go FAR beyond helping those in need.
  29. sdaniels7114

    sdaniels7114 Rookie

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2006
    Messages:
    5,742
    Likes Received:
    7
    Ratings:
    +7 / 0 / -0


    That whole scenario kinda fits with saying Al Capone cost this nation millions in crime related charges so we should have never let a single Italian in here, or a single fat guy or a single cigar smoker. John Wayne Gacy was a huge Football fan. So are you. Is it fair to associate you and him together? You can't define a class of people that's got more than about 3 members that doesn't have some sort of criminal element in it. Even cops sometimes break the law, even Priests.

    I've met an enormous number of undocumented aliens in my life, most have been Hispanic; but there's a decent number of Irish and Chinese there too, as well as many other races. They weren't/aren't here to break the law.
  30. pats-blue

    pats-blue Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2004
    Messages:
    961
    Likes Received:
    2
    Ratings:
    +2 / 0 / -0


    That really is a straw man argument. None of the others you mentioned are here in illegal numbers like the Mexicans (not saying Hispanic on purpose not as an "insult" in case the PC police are out) ADD to that the illegals from Mexico are not the best and brightest. To answer your post which by the way has NOTHING to do with my post as I wasn't saying that Mexicans are here to break the law. However here is a large criminal element to the influx of illegals from Mexico at least here in the valley....some intentional and some not so intentional. (many of the extreame DUIs here in AZ are illegals). I can tell you FACT not a hypothetical situation that I have encountered MANY more illegals from Mexico creating a tax drain by illegal activities large and small than Italians, Chinese or football fans combined. I'm relaying fact from actual experience. I have also met some illegals from MExico that work very hard and take care of thier business better than any American does in similar circumstances here in the US. We aren't talking about bad examples here though we are talking a drain on the economy and in that you can add up all the cost associated with "bad" Italians, Chinese and football fans and they don't come close to that that the illegals from Mexico cost this country. I related an actual experience that HAPPENED. Care to find me a similar experience using an illegal from any of the groups that you mentioned?

    I also like how you take that I implied they are all here to break the law. I haven't I was relating a story that occurred at work that people illegally in this country cost taxpayers a great deal of money. Pardon me that there was a criminal element to my story since I am a police officer. It was about cost..not crime so don't try and twist it.
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2007

Share This Page