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We had a slightly above average defense. (15th of 32)
We have above average special teams, I think that is obvious.
We have excellent coaching. I think that is obvious.
Your argumnet then is that with an average QB (only assumption you can make in the 'what would we be without Brady' argument) we would be below average or much worse on offense. I totally disagree. The other 10 players on our offense not named Brady are certainly at least above average.

We didn't draft Brady?
 
We were 11-5 without Brady in 2008. Not sure how anyone can argue with that.
Otherwise, you are simply making up something and pretending its a fact. What we are without Brady depends first on the quality of his replacement, and secondly on how drastically we change the approach and gameplanning.

We aren't allowing hundreds of passing yards in garbage time prevent defense without Brady either, so don't think the defense doesn't also look worse because of how good the offense is.

We had a much better defense and a easier schedule. And I believe Matt Cassel is a better QB than Hoyer and Mallett. But I get where you're coming from.
 
The best way I can explain it is this in regards to rankings. Again using Brady as an example:

The average for his draft class is 63.8 games played, 2.4 average seasons as a starter, and 0.27 Pro Bowls. Most of those players are no longer active in the NFL so the averages are not going to change very much. Provided Brady keeps playing well, which he should, his numbers will rise while everything else stays relatively flat so his scores will improve since they are based on the average for the draft. In Wares case the numbers are 48.7, 1.8, and 0.17. Many of those players are still active and those numbers are going to rise, particularly the pro bowl numbers. When it gets to around Brady's which seems to be around the norm for those late 90s drafts, he would need to play in at least 3 more pro bowls just to maintain his current score. Maybe he will do that but thats why I would say his score is going to likely decrease over time since its going to be tough to continue on his level with the beating his body takes.

The only way you can rank something on this scale is to take objective measures. Everyone knows Brady is a better player than a punter. Punters never get injured. They always start. They have gotten 190 games out of him and 7 pro bowls. The special teamers are kind of outliers in the whole thing.

I never wrote or meant to write if I did that it was proof they did bad. Its just a different way to look at the drafts. The players they have drafted, particularly in the 2nd and 3rd rounds, have not played as much or been successful as other players selected in the same round. Light was a huge hit and Gronkowski would also appear to be. They have had opportunities to play elsewhere and either were never picked up or failed to perform well. They just werent good players. Overall the scores were average for New England and they hit on the most important position on the field in getting a great QB, the greatest value pick of all time in the draft. They are also great at buying low and selling high in regards to free agency.

I think that it is noble to try to ease Jet fan suffering by devising a system that ranks the Jets as good at something over a ten year period. I understand that it is a very difficult task, but you need to devise a system that rates most of the teams that are good at drafting at or near the top of the list. Until that happens, you probably souldn't present it to an audience that's not made up of exclusively Jets fans.
 
lol.

So if winning isn't the object of the draft, what is?

Please give us the proper argument.

How the players we draft perform. I'm not saying we are a bad drafting team, but I do think we are average. BB does a great job trading picks and getting good value, but I believe we could get better players than we usually do. But it doesn't mean sometimes we don't get great players, because we do.
 
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How the players we draft perform. I'm not saying we are a bad drafting team, but I do think we are average. BB does a great job trading picks and getting good value, but I believe we could get better players than we usually do. But it doesn't mean sometimes we don't get great players, because we do.

Being "average" when consitently drafting at the bottom of every round for over a 10 year period is pretty good. Don't forget the 1st round pick that was stolen from the Pats in 08.
 
The best way I can explain it is this in regards to rankings. Again using Brady as an example:

The average for his draft class is 63.8 games played, 2.4 average seasons as a starter, and 0.27 Pro Bowls. Most of those players are no longer active in the NFL so the averages are not going to change very much. Provided Brady keeps playing well, which he should, his numbers will rise while everything else stays relatively flat so his scores will improve since they are based on the average for the draft. In Wares case the numbers are 48.7, 1.8, and 0.17. Many of those players are still active and those numbers are going to rise, particularly the pro bowl numbers. When it gets to around Brady's which seems to be around the norm for those late 90s drafts, he would need to play in at least 3 more pro bowls just to maintain his current score. Maybe he will do that but thats why I would say his score is going to likely decrease over time since its going to be tough to continue on his level with the beating his body takes.

The only way you can rank something on this scale is to take objective measures. Everyone knows Brady is a better player than a punter. Punters never get injured. They always start. They have gotten 190 games out of him and 7 pro bowls. The special teamers are kind of outliers in the whole thing.

I never wrote or meant to write if I did that it was proof they did bad. Its just a different way to look at the drafts. The players they have drafted, particularly in the 2nd and 3rd rounds, have not played as much or been successful as other players selected in the same round. Light was a huge hit and Gronkowski would also appear to be. They have had opportunities to play elsewhere and either were never picked up or failed to perform well. They just werent good players. Overall the scores were average for New England and they hit on the most important position on the field in getting a great QB, the greatest value pick of all time in the draft. They are also great at buying low and selling high in regards to free agency.

Every response is outlier and exception, yet you continue to hold that this is a valid way to judge a draft.

In the timeframe you are using, the Patriots made 11 2nd round picks.
Included in those are Kevin Faulk, who surely gets a poor rating your system because he does not count as a starter or probowler. Everything about that player is added up in your system to 0 in 66.7% of your judgment and a good score for participation since he lasted a lot of years and didn't get injured a lot.
It has absolutely no consideration of the quality of his play, and in fact would consider him the equal of a long snapper who was drafted that year, when Faulk has been a major contribtor to a dynasty.
It also includes Bethel Johnson, who was one of the best KRs in the NFL for 3 years, including 2 SB Championships that he made large contributions to.
It includes Marquise Hill who passed away.
That is 27% of your analysis which is severly flawed.
With the other 8 2nd round picks the Pats also drafted Matt Light, Deion Branch, Eugene Wilson all large contributors to multiple SBs, and Brandon Mithcell a starter on a SB Champ, who had an 8 year NFL career.
That is 6 successes and a death in 11 second round picks, plius a blocking TE who played in 70 games and started 36.
That leaves Chad Jackson, Tony Simmons and Adrian Klemm.
Your analysis is very flawed here.
If the Patriots stink at second round draft picks, please show me the teams that have been great.
 
We had a much better defense and a easier schedule. And I believe Matt Cassel is a better QB than Hoyer and Mallett. But I get where you're coming from.

Much better defense? 2008?
There is absolutely no way to know if Hoyer or Mallett are better than what Cassell was before he took the field. Most fans wanted him cut that preseason.
By the way, Hoyer and Mallett are kind of irrelevant to the argument because you are trying to say the team surrounding Brady sucks, so supporting your argument by saying we would be bad because you think the QB would be bad isn't relevant.

Schedule is a ridiculous argument.
 
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How the players we draft perform. I'm not saying we are a bad drafting team, but I do think we are average. BB does a great job trading picks and getting good value, but I believe we could get better players than we usually do. But it doesn't mean sometimes we don't get great players, because we do.

What is wrong with this statement?

-The draft is one of the methods of building a team
-The point of building a team is to win
-How you use the draft depends on what you have on your roster, what you can obtain in trade and free agency, and what your needs are
-If the result of your draft is that it helped build a consistent winner, you drafted well, within the context of building your team
 
Much better defense? 2008?
There is absolutely no way to know if Hoyer or Mallett are better than what Cassell was before he took the field. Most fans wanted him cut that preseason.
By the way, Hoyer and Mallett are kind of irrelevant to the argument because you are trying to say the team surrounding Brady sucks, so supporting your argument by saying we would be bad because you think the QB would be bad isn't relevant.

Schedule is a ridiculous argument.

Yes, 2008, better defense.
I never said the team surrounding sucks. The team is built around Brady. It fits his talents. To say the team would go 8-8 or 7-9 without him is far from saying the supporting cast sucks. The Jests were 8-8, the Broncos made the playoffs 8-8.

And you can show any stats about the defense you want. I saw every game the Patriots played, and the defense was painful to watch most of the time.
 
What is wrong with this statement?

-The draft is one of the methods of building a team
-The point of building a team is to win
-How you use the draft depends on what you have on your roster, what you can obtain in trade and free agency, and what your needs are
-If the result of your draft is that it helped build a consistent winner, you drafted well, within the context of building your team

When the defense is as terrible as ours is up until this season, I don't think we can say wehave drafted well, but that's just my opinion. Of course we have drafted well enough the offense has been able to keep us winning more games than anyone else.

That's why I say we aren't good at drafting, but we are far from beeing bad.
 
Yes, 2008, better defense.
I never said the team surrounding sucks. The team is built around Brady. It fits his talents. To say the team would go 8-8 or 7-9 without him is far from saying the supporting cast sucks. The Jests were 8-8, the Broncos made the playoffs 8-8.

And you can show any stats about the defense you want. I saw every game the Patriots played, and the defense was painful to watch most of the time.

So no facts will matter because you are going on feelings?

The 2008 defense featuring Deltha Oneal, was better than the 2011 defense, but not by much, but the 2012 defense will be better than the 2011.
The difference between the 2011 defense and the 2008 defense certainly isn't 11-5 vs struggling to .500.
 
When the defense is as terrible as ours is up until this season, I don't think we can say wehave drafted well, but that's just my opinion. Of course we have drafted well enough the offense has been able to keep us winning more games than anyone else.

That's why I say we aren't good at drafting, but we are far from beeing bad.

The defense since 2001 has ranked 3rd in points allowed.
In the last 5 years it has ranked 3rd.
In the last 3 in has ranked 6th.
"Before last year" it ranked 5th in the previous 2 years, 3rd in the previous 5, and 3rd in the previous 10 years.
How you can call that terrible defies logic.
 
When the defense is as terrible as ours is up until this season, I don't think we can say wehave drafted well, but that's just my opinion. Of course we have drafted well enough the offense has been able to keep us winning more games than anyone else.

That's why I say we aren't good at drafting, but we are far from beeing bad.

You still did not answer the question.
By the way, if a team drafts the greatest offense (or defense) in the hisotry of the league, and the worst ever on the other side of the ball, and the result is they are the best team in the NFL, did they draft well?
 
Every response is outlier and exception, yet you continue to hold that this is a valid way to judge a draft.

In the timeframe you are using, the Patriots made 11 2nd round picks.
Included in those are Kevin Faulk, who surely gets a poor rating your system because he does not count as a starter or probowler. Everything about that player is added up in your system to 0 in 66.7% of your judgment and a good score for participation since he lasted a lot of years and didn't get injured a lot.
It has absolutely no consideration of the quality of his play, and in fact would consider him the equal of a long snapper who was drafted that year, when Faulk has been a major contribtor to a dynasty.
It also includes Bethel Johnson, who was one of the best KRs in the NFL for 3 years, including 2 SB Championships that he made large contributions to.
It includes Marquise Hill who passed away.
That is 27% of your analysis which is severly flawed.
With the other 8 2nd round picks the Pats also drafted Matt Light, Deion Branch, Eugene Wilson all large contributors to multiple SBs, and Brandon Mithcell a starter on a SB Champ, who had an 8 year NFL career.
That is 6 successes and a death in 11 second round picks, plius a blocking TE who played in 70 games and started 36.
That leaves Chad Jackson, Tony Simmons and Adrian Klemm.
Your analysis is very flawed here.
If the Patriots stink at second round draft picks, please show me the teams that have been great.

FWIW, Wilson and Faulk were both considered above average selections. Mitchell around average but below average for the round. Branch was considered 3rd round because of selection number. Bethel Johnson and his 4 years in the NFL were spectacular. I mean he was cut from 4 or 5 teams but what do they know.

Here are the actual players: Wilson, Mitchell, Hill(who never played before his awful accident), Klemm, Faulk, Shaw, Light, Rutledge, Jackson, Johnson, and Simmons.

The Giants would be an example of an excellent drafting team: Umenyiora, Barber, Griffin, Snee, Webster and Smith to go along with the duds of Moss, Montgomery, Carter and Jurevicius.
 
The argument was we are only good because of Brady despite incompetant drafting.

...except for 2008 and assuming Belichick couldn't groom a competent quarterback in 10 years if he didn't draft Brady (which he did, by the way).

Probably need to except a few other things, but i don't want to sidetrack the argument.
 
The defense since 2001 has ranked 3rd in points allowed.
In the last 5 years it has ranked 3rd.
In the last 3 in has ranked 6th.
"Before last year" it ranked 5th in the previous 2 years, 3rd in the previous 5, and 3rd in the previous 10 years.
How you can call that terrible defies logic.

"Stats are for losers"-BB

Did you even watch the games last season? I've never been so frustrated in my life. Some analysts were saying this was the worst defense of all time And I know I shouldn't bring analysts to the discussion, mostly because they know nothing. But I can't believe they are dumb enough to say that about a average or good defense.

I can't believe anyone can say we have a good defense post 2008.
 
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"Stats are for losers"-BB

Did you even watch the games last season? I've never been so frustrated in my life. Some analysts were saying this was the worst defense of all time And I know I shouldn't bring analysts to the discussion, mostly because they know nothing. But I can't believe they are dumb enough to say that about a average or good defense.

I can't believe anyone can say we have a good defense post 2008.

I don't think he meant "being one of the teams in the Super Bowl" as a stat, in that sense.
 
I don't think he meant "being one of the teams in the Super Bowl" as a stat, in that sense.

Of course we got to the Super Bowl. Because we have the best QB ever, a great offense, and are greatly coached. Our defense however, sucked most part of the season. Did it not?
 
"Stats are for losers"-BB

Did you even watch the games last season? I've never been so frustrated in my life. Some analysts were saying this was the worst defense of all time And I know I shouldn't bring analysts to the discussion, mostly because they know nothing. But I can't believe they are dumb enough to say that about a average or good defense.

I can't believe anyone can say we have a good defense post 2008.

How many defensive players do we have left from the last Super Bowl? It might give you a clue to how your argument somehow seems logical to you but is really preposterous.
 
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