Talent Level not the issue

[NEPettyOfficer72]

Tom Brady, Stevan Ridley, Shane Vereen, Rob Gronkowski, Danny Amendola (healthy), Julian Edelman, Aaron Dobson, Kenbrell Thompkins, Tim Wright, Sebastian Vollmer, Nate Solder, Ryan Wendell, Chandler Jones, Rob Ninkovich, Vince Wilfork, Chris Jones, Dominique Easley, Jerod Mayo, Dont'a Hightower, Jamie Collins, Darrelle Revis, Brandon Browner, Alfonzo Dennard, Logan Ryans, Kyle Arrington (slot), Devin McCourty, Matthew Slater.... and you may disagree and thats fine because we are all entitled to our own opinion but every last one of these guys to me, and this is me talking, are very talented and the ones that I highlighted (remember, just me talking, my opinion) are exceptionally talented when allowed to do what they do and are fully healthy ... so with that being said I do not think it is a talent issue.. I think its more of a mentality issue in the sense that we just can't show up and expect to get a victory, but I think now we understand that we just have to go out and take it and dominate like we are capable of... with an edge and an attitude

 

[patriot1136]

I agree, we have a very talented group overall.
At least these guys light it up for me in Madden

 

[pork3]

Interesting.

You believe we're fielding a quality wide receiving/tight-end group (outside of Gronk and Edelman)?
What about defensive line (Joe Vellano, Chris Jones)?
And offensive line (Cannon, Devey, Fleming)?

That said, it's not just the players. Coaching decisions have been baffling at times this year...

-Jamman

 

[FredFromDartmouth]

How about Steve Smith, Emanuel Sanders, and Wes Welker?

The Patriots have almost no talent at WR and Tom has no one to throw to except Edleman and Gronk. There is no deep threat. All the defense has to do is take away Edleman and stack the line and the Patriots are screwed.

Then there is the Tommy Kelly disaster. The endless economizing moves by the Patriots have finally caught up with them.

 

[reflexblue]

Tom Brady, Stevan Ridley, Shane Vereen, Rob Gronkowski, Danny Amendola (healthy), Julian Edelman, Aaron Dobson, Kenbrell Thompkins, Tim Wright, Sebastian Vollmer, Nate Solder, Ryan Wendell, Chandler Jones, Rob Ninkovich, Vince Wilfork, Chris Jones, Dominique Easley, Jerod Mayo, Dont'a Hightower, Jamie Collins, Darrelle Revis, Brandon Browner, Alfonzo Dennard, Logan Ryans, Kyle Arrington (slot), Devin McCourty, Matthew Slater.... and you may disagree and thats fine because we are all entitled to our own opinion but every last one of these guys to me, and this is me talking, are very talented and the ones that I highlighted (remember, just me talking, my opinion) are exceptionally talented when allowed to do what they do and are fully healthy ... so with that being said I do not think it is a talent issue.. I think its more of a mentality issue in the sense that we just can't show up and expect to get a victory, but I think now we understand that we just have to go out and take it and dominate like we are capable of... with an edge and an attitude

The one area that the team stinks is the offensive line. IF you can't block then Brady can't throw and Ridley can't run. I think the crux of the problem is the O-Lines inability to block. And I think they just aren't that talented.

This has been going on for five or six years now; in the playoffs the weak link has been the middle of the O-line. Teams have kept Brady on his heals and on his back with pressure up the middle. The poor tackle play on the part of Solder has also happened this year.

 

[FrodoBagginz]

How about Steve Smith, Emanuel Sanders, and Wes Welker?

The Patriots have almost no talent at WR and Tom has no one to throw to except Edleman and Gronk. There is no deep threat. All the defense has to do is take away Edleman and stack the line and the Patriots are screwed.

Then there is the Tommy Kelly disaster. The endless economizing moves by the Patriots have finally caught up with them.

We do have a deep threat. Unfortunately, he was benched.

 

[condon84]

I agree that our defense is severely under performing. With that talent, there is no way they should be getting embarrassed like they did vs an Alex Smith led offense.

Our offense starts and ends with our OL. Without a good one, it doesn't matter who our skill positions are.

 

[Deus Irae]

Tom Brady, Stevan Ridley, Shane Vereen, Rob Gronkowski, Danny Amendola (healthy), Julian Edelman, Aaron Dobson, Kenbrell Thompkins, Tim Wright, Sebastian Vollmer, Nate Solder, Ryan Wendell, Chandler Jones, Rob Ninkovich, Vince Wilfork, Chris Jones, Dominique Easley, Jerod Mayo, Dont'a Hightower, Jamie Collins, Darrelle Revis, Brandon Browner, Alfonzo Dennard, Logan Ryans, Kyle Arrington (slot), Devin McCourty, Matthew Slater.... and you may disagree and thats fine because we are all entitled to our own opinion but every last one of these guys to me, and this is me talking, are very talented and the ones that I highlighted (remember, just me talking, my opinion) are exceptionally talented when allowed to do what they do and are fully healthy ... so with that being said I do not think it is a talent issue.. I think its more of a mentality issue in the sense that we just can't show up and expect to get a victory, but I think now we understand that we just have to go out and take it and dominate like we are capable of... with an edge and an attitude

But you think every one of the 65 players on the Patriots is going to the Hall of Fame...

 

[Brady_to_Moss]

They have the talent besides OL. And thats the problem. But coaching really blows this year

 

[patsfan-1982]

the offense if Gronk was playing the way he was before last years injury and the OL was protecting Brady would be more then a nuff but IMO the defense was over rated to start the season just adding revis to a bottom 20's defense is not going to make them good a nuff to win games week in and week out

 

[FredFromDartmouth]

Greg Bedard just blew up this argument on the radio. He said that the talent level on the Patriots offense sucks compared to a good team like Denver. The WRs are the Junior Varsity.

 

[n6249c]

The difference in talent between any two NFL teams is insignificant. What matters is what the players do with their talent. For years the Patriots have gotten the best out of their players. This year they are getting nothing.

Consider this: A year or two ago the team started five (5) different players at center. You can't tell me every one of them was a superior talent. IIRC two of those five might have started at center for the Pats this year. And I think one of those five was a practice squad scrub filling in. Yet the O line that year had no problems, while this year the interior O line is reportedly a disaster area.

Moreover, the entire O line is a disaster area. How come Solder is whiffing on blocks all this season, after being considered a solid (or better) performer in past years?

It's not the talent on the field. It's the coaching and the locker room. My money says BB misses Dante more than he would ever admit. Certainly seems clear that Dave D is not filling his shoes.

 

[Jimke]

Greg Bedard just blew up this argument on the radio. He said that the talent level on the Patriots offense sucks compared to a good team like Denver. The WRs are the Junior Varsity.

Good comment by Bedard. Except for Edelman, no wide receiver drafted and developed since Branch/Givens. The Patriots
weren't very interested in re-signing Edelman after his rookie contract ran out and even last year the Pats played hardball.
After Moss/Welker, no free agent has panned out.

 

[FourierSeries]

Most of the guys the OP claims are talented are just incredibly overrated. I think the level of talent is certainly an issue. Coaching is an issue as well - perhaps a bigger issue than talent level - but the lack of talent should not be overlooked.

 

[n6249c]

Correction, it was four (4) different starting centers in 2011: Koppen, Wendell, Connolly and Nick McDonald. McDonald was promoted off the practice squad to make his first start in a win over the Colts. Pats made it to the Super Bowl that year, despite having a practice squad sub as their starting center for two games (both wins). Point remains the same, not a talent issue. It is execution that is lacking.

 

[condon84]

Greg Bedard just blew up this argument on the radio. He said that the talent level on the Patriots offense sucks compared to a good team like Denver. The WRs are the Junior Varsity.

Let's see:

Bedard, a writer, says our offensive weapons sucks.

Collinsworth, a former player turned analyst who watch game film, says we do have weapons but the issue is the OL.


Hard who to believe.

 

[Deus Irae]

Let's see:

Bedard, a writer, says our offensive weapons sucks.

Collinsworth, a former player turned analyst who watch game film, says we do have weapons but the issue is the OL.


Hard who to believe.

Former players around here have been talking about the problems with the weapons. Bedard is not some lone voice in the wilderness.

 

[Boomer B]

Let's see:

Bedard, a writer, says our offensive weapons sucks.

Collinsworth, a former player turned analyst who watch game film, says we do have weapons but the issue is the OL.


Hard who to believe.

I watched Inside the NFL last night and the former players (Boomer, Phil Simms, Ed Reed) made it pretty clear that the talent level at outside receiver is very lacking for the Pats. Boomer talked about the other upper echelon QB'S and their outside targets: Manning - Thomas & Sanders, Ben - A. Brown, M. Ryan - Jones & White, Stafford - C. Johnson, A. Rogers - Nelson, Cutler - Marshal and Jeffrey, Romo - Bryant & Williams, Dalton - AJ Green

Brady has nothing comparable at the outside WR position. We have Dobson who we don't know is gonna be good or mediocre. That's it. Lafell, Amendola, & Thompson wouldn't be starting on 90% of the other teams in the league.

The Patriots have a big lack of talent on the o-line and at WR. Belichick is directly responsible for the lack of talent on offense. He picks the groceries, goes after the free agents and trades, and has final say on the roster.

 

[goheels22002]

How about Steve Smith, Emanuel Sanders, and Wes Welker?

The Patriots have almost no talent at WR and Tom has no one to throw to except Edleman and Gronk. There is no deep threat. All the defense has to do is take away Edleman and stack the line and the Patriots are screwed.

Then there is the Tommy Kelly disaster. The endless economizing moves by the Patriots have finally caught up with them.

Smith and Welker are old at 35 and 33, respectively, and relatively expensive. Sanders is the only one, at 27-years-old, that I wish the Pats had made a play for.

But overall, I think this current crop of receivers is deep, talented, young and the most diverse of the Brady-Belichick era. In that group I include Lafell, Dobson, Thompkins, Wright, Gronkowski, Edelman, Amendola, Vereen and Develin, and maybe Tyms.

Dobson and LaFell are deep threats if lined up with the right combination of other receivers. Really, with Gronk, Edelman and Vereen on the field, who do you put on Dobson and LaFell? A couple of corners who have to hang out on an island with two big young receivers. It's not as complicated as the Patriots appear to be making it.

The personnel groupings and play calling baffle me. Seriously.

What's wrong with going with Vereen in the backfield with Brady, and Gronkowski, Edelman, Dobson and LaFell attacking what the defense gives them? That's five capable receivers who can exploit different spots within a zone, or who can create mismatches against a man-to-man defense. Does every NFL team have five shut-down defenders? Not even close.

The old saying was that Brady's favorite receiver is the guy who is open. Just do that. I don't get all this crap about Brady has lost confidence in this guy or that guy. If he can't get open, don't put him in. And Brady should go back to working through his progressions and hitting the open guy.

The Amendola situation is similarly baffling to me. He was a good player with the Rams, showed some real skill last season in a few games, but is now lost.

 

[condon84]

I watched Inside the NFL last night and the former players (Boomer, Phil Simms, Ed Reed) made it pretty clear that the talent level at outside receiver is very lacking for the Pats. Boomer talked about the other upper echelon QB'S and their outside targets: Manning - Thomas & Sanders, Ben - A. Brown, M. Ryan - Jones & White, Stafford - C. Johnson, A. Rogers - Nelson, Cutler - Marshal and Jeffrey, Romo - Bryant & Williams, Dalton - AJ Green

Brady has nothing comparable at the outside WR position. We have Dobson who we don't know is gonna be good or mediocre. That's it. Lafell, Amendola, & Thompson wouldn't be starting on 90% of the other teams in the league.

The Patriots have a big lack of talent on the o-line and at WR. Belichick is directly responsible for the lack of talent on offense. He picks the groceries, goes after the free agents and trades, and has final say on the roster.

I agree that we don't have elite outside WRs like those you mentioned, but to make it sound like Brady has no talent to throw to is disingenuous. We have the worse OL in the NFL. That is the issue. Brady is scared sh!t back there and I don't blame him.

If we do somehow fix our OL and then Brady STILL can't find anyone to throw to other than Edelman, then yeah, it is an issue.

I know I wasn't the only one who saw Dobson starting to look really good prior to getting hurt last year. Or that Amendola looked great even with one hamstring against the Bills.

To say that these guys just dropped off after a year is crazy. The OL in my opinion IS the issue. How can you judge any of our skill players fairly with the way our OL has been playing?