Welcome to PatsFans.com

Sure looks like our founders got something wrong, or maybe it's the Supremes

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Patters, Dec 30, 2012.

  1. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    19,006
    Likes Received:
    323
    Ratings:
    +598 / 24 / -19

    The charts are quite interesting, and it's worth noting that the states with the higher murder rates from guns are generally red states. But, it's good to see that since Obama got elected, gun crime has declined.

    Gun crime statistics by US state: download the data. Visualised | World news | guardian.co.uk

    The US has the highest gun ownership rate in the world - there are 89 guns for every 100 Americans, compared to 6 in England and Wales.

    And the murder figures themselves are astounding for Brits used to around 550 murders per year. In 2011 - the latest year for which detailed statistics are available - there were 12,664 murders in the US. Of those, 8,583 were caused by firearms.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2012
  2. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2006
    Messages:
    27,458
    Likes Received:
    327
    Ratings:
    +919 / 7 / -3

    #1 We're not England.

    #2 We have a 2nd Amendment.

    #3 We have a 2nd Amendment because of England.

    #4 See #1.
     
  3. Charlotte Pats Fan

    Charlotte Pats Fan In the Starting Line-Up

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2007
    Messages:
    2,015
    Likes Received:
    69
    Ratings:
    +257 / 1 / -3

    No Jersey Selected

    Gun sales have skyrocketed in the past 4 years. How could gun crimes possibly go down with Obama in office?
     
  4. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2007
    Messages:
    27,332
    Likes Received:
    201
    Ratings:
    +576 / 6 / -24

    #18 Jersey

    What I really get a kick out of are people who think Obama will go down in history as a great president.:eek:
     
  5. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    19,006
    Likes Received:
    323
    Ratings:
    +598 / 24 / -19

    Of course you wouldn't. He hasn't focused specifically on the interests and special rights of middle aged straight white guys. A large part of that demographic will never regard him as a great president, just as a large part of other demographics will never regard Reagan as a great president. But, if you value gay rights, health care reform, weakening the Tea Party, redefining American politics so that Republicans are compelled to be more inclusive, getting more minorities into government, as well the symbolism of his victory as important, you'd see him as a great president. In my opinion, he'll rank high in pantheon of presidents. Just like Kennedy and Reagan, Obama commands the love and admiration of millions of Americans, and not only that he is wonderful international symbol as well. My guess is he'll be in the top 10 to 15 easily.

    Historical rankings of Presidents of the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
  6. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2006
    Messages:
    21,489
    Likes Received:
    505
    Ratings:
    +1,112 / 16 / -9

    Someone had to finish Kennedy's stolen years... I mean, look how the righties have downgraded him. Of course so much of the tragedy with John F Kennedy was that other than Cuba, he was pure potential, by and large. Not enough time. (And no slam on LBJ, one of those rare politicians who can see the times change, and -- except for Vietnam -- changed with them.)

    Obama will be remembered as the first great president of the 21st century. If he's considered less than that, it will be a rosy future indeed :)

    As to what the Founders got right and wrong, our first amendment has as its stated purpose the security of the state through the arming of a well regulated militia.

    Article I, Section 8 of the constitution does not seem to provide for a standing army. Instead, you can cobble one together, but can't appropriate it for more than 2 years. The state militias, by contrast, seem to have been envisioned as standing units. Reading the second amendment without considering the place and purpose of militias in the 18th century is pretty darned myopic.

    PFnV

    I do know tht
     
  7. PatriotFan77

    PatriotFan77 Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2011
    Messages:
    1,454
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    You know what?? ;)
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2012
  8. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2006
    Messages:
    21,489
    Likes Received:
    505
    Ratings:
    +1,112 / 16 / -9

    I do know that sometimes you try to get rid of leftover text, and miss some :D

    PFnV
     
  9. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2006
    Messages:
    27,458
    Likes Received:
    327
    Ratings:
    +919 / 7 / -3

    The media will try to portray Obama as a great president. History and fact will tell a far different story.
     
  10. scout

    scout Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    7,725
    Likes Received:
    30
    Ratings:
    +51 / 0 / -2

    #15 Jersey

    Nostradamus, that you?
     
  11. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2006
    Messages:
    21,489
    Likes Received:
    505
    Ratings:
    +1,112 / 16 / -9

    Perhaps a cross between the prophetically vague nostradamus, and some of the finest practitioners of the French novel form -- NostraDumas.
     
  12. Claremonster

    Claremonster Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    2,215
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -1

    Who the fcuk would be that blind?:eek:

    He is making Dubya look smart.
     
  13. Claremonster

    Claremonster Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    2,215
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -1

    He is actually the worst.
     
  14. Claremonster

    Claremonster Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    2,215
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -1

    http://www.haciendapub.com/medicalsentinel/guns-and-violence

    Quote:
    Citizenship and the Beneficial Aspect of Gun Ownership

    Recent scholarship in the criminologic, sociologic, and legal literature shows that the defensive uses of firearms by citizens amount to 2.5 million uses per year and dwarf the offensive gun uses by criminals. Between 25-75 lives are saved by a gun for every life lost to a gun. Medical costs saved by guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens are 15 times greater than costs incurred by criminal uses of firearms. Guns also prevent injuries to good people and protect billions of dollars of property every year.

    Moreover, the actual U.S. health care costs of treating gunshot wounds is approximately $1.5 billion, which is less than 0.2 percent of the U.S. annual health care expenditures. The $20-$40 billion figure so frequently cited in the medical literature, has been found to be deliberate and exaggerated estimate of lifetime productivity lost, where every victim of crime is assumed that had not his life ended untimely he would have become a wealthy successful citizen. Reality points otherwise: Many "victims" are criminal elements who have been killed in the act of perpetrating serious crimes either by the police or by law-abiding citizens acting in self-defense.

    Since at least the mid-1980s, Dr. Arthur Kellermann of Emory University, whose work had been funded by the CDC, published a series of studies purporting to show that persons who keep guns in the home are more likely to be victims of homicide than those who don't. In a 1986 NEJM paper, Drs. Kellermann and Donald T. Reay claimed that defending oneself or one's family with a firearm in the home is dangerous and counter productive, noting that, "a gun owner is 43 times more likely to kill a family member than an intruder."(2) This conclusion, though, was severely criticized by numerous investigators, who have not only discerned evidence of methodologic and conceptual errors in the study, but also found that the authors, most significantly, had failed to consider and underestimated the protective benefits of guns.(3-5)

    On the other hand, Prof. John R. Lott, Jr., reviewed the FBI's massive yearly crime statistics for all 3054 U.S. counties over 18 years (1977-1994), the largest national survey on gun ownership and state police documentation in illegal gun use. The data show that while neither state waiting periods nor the federal Brady Law is associated with a reduction in crime rates, adopting concealed carry gun laws cut death rates from public, multiple shootings (e.g., as those which took place in Dunblane, Scotland, and Tasmania, Australia in 1996 or the infamous Columbine High School shooting in Littleton, Colorado, in 1999) --- by an amazing 69 percent. Allowing law-abiding citizens to carry concealed weapons deters violent crime --- without any apparent increase in accidental death. If states without right to carry laws had adopted them in 1992, about 1570 murders, 4177 rapes, and 60,000 aggravated assaults would have been avoided annually.(6)

    In Prof. Lott's survey, children 14 to 15 years of age were found to be 14.5 times more likely to die from automobile injuries, 5 times more likely to die from drowning or fire and burns, and 3 times more likely to die from bicycle accidents than they are to die from gun accidents.

    When concealed carry gun laws went into effect in a given county, murders fell by 8 percent, rapes by 5 percent, and aggravated assaults by 7 percent.(6)
     
  15. Claremonster

    Claremonster Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    2,215
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -1

  16. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2006
    Messages:
    21,489
    Likes Received:
    505
    Ratings:
    +1,112 / 16 / -9

    Well, Clare, your 2002 editorial is full of unsupported pap, which I'd love to see some statistical proof of. It's worth noting that it appears on a page where all the content seems exclusively biased, with links like "The Police State of Medicine" appearing in the right rail. The piece also includes a couple dozen footnotes, most of which are to the author's own previous work. I'd love to see what "recent scholarship" he's talking about in the section quoted; Do you have a source for the numbers of "deaths prevented" by defensive uses of guns in the U.S.? You would think that a correspondingly higher murder rate would pertain in the U.K., where there are virtually no defensive uses of guns. Shouldn't their murder rate be many times ours?

    As to your second link, it's broken.

    PFnV

    Edit - to make your homework simpler, the goal here is to establish where the "25-75 lives saved by a gun for every death caused by a gun" comes from.

    Real numbers, please, not "people who were afraid they might be in peril if they don't have a gun." Yes yes, someone went to a club in a sketchy neighborhood and carried a gun, and I went and didn't, and neither of us got killed. No matter what the paranoid gun-toter believes, a gun did not therefore save his life.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2012
  17. scout

    scout Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    7,725
    Likes Received:
    30
    Ratings:
    +51 / 0 / -2

    #15 Jersey

    When people look back at Obama's terms, the closest comparison for the state of the economy will be the Great Depression (or at least I hope so). Whether we were actually in a recession is irrelevant, his first term we were on the brink of economic disaster.
    In terms of keeping our country safe, people will read that after one of the worst attacks against our country (at least I hope so) he deployed troops to track down and kill the person responsible. That during his administration, he gave orders eliminating the dictator from Libya without the use of ground troops. In terms of society, he championed universal health care.
    We do not know the future, but are aware people will always disregard accomplishments due to a party affiliation. That is evident in this thread as he "is the worst".
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2012
  18. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Pro Bowl Player

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    15,626
    Likes Received:
    11
    Ratings:
    +13 / 0 / -1

    #75 Jersey

    Ummmmm...

    If I remember correctly, it's an age-olde tradition -in this and most other forums- to take your personal stance on a hot-button issue, shut out all opposing information, cherry-pick supporting articles and editorials with charts and graphs, and double-down with a paranoid conspiracy theory flush with patriotic sloganeering and references to the Founders.

    Get with the program!
     
  19. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2006
    Messages:
    21,489
    Likes Received:
    505
    Ratings:
    +1,112 / 16 / -9

    ACK! I need some sort of source of science-y sounding opinion that in reality is nothing more than quackery dressed up as scholarship... like this thing called the "American Association of Physicians and Surgeons"...

    Science-Based Medicine » The Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons: Ideology trumps science-based medicine

    Oh wait. That's the one this Faria guy works for. :ugh:

    Now that sounds like it fits the bill!

    PFnV
     
  20. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Pro Bowl Player

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    15,626
    Likes Received:
    11
    Ratings:
    +13 / 0 / -1

    #75 Jersey

    Good stuff. Just read the blog you linked. Sad to see even a hint of trepidation on the part of the author regarding exposing the idiocy and moral selectiveness of the whole "point" the AAPS. I'm actually going to see a surgeon this Thursday and will ask him if he's a member. If so, I'm getting dressed and walking out.

    My favorite funny quote from the AAPS references in the blog has an amazingly thick and creamy arrogance which the AAPS feels no need to veil even a little bit:

    "Inescapably, the herd is a force to be reckoned with in all of our professional lives. We must be prepared to travel with it or alongside it, to one degree or another, without being trampled or singled out for extermination. And, for those few physicians who still believe in individual-based medicine practiced according to the principles of Hippocrates, and in watching out for one another when one of our own is attacked, fortunately we have the AAPS. We are a fellowship of “different doctors,” and the distinction is apparent.":woohoo::rofl:
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2012

Share This Page

unset ($sidebar_block_show); ?>