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Supreme Court Takes Up Affirmative Action Case

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by cupofjoe1962, Feb 21, 2012.

  1. cupofjoe1962

    cupofjoe1962 Rookie

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    Supreme Court Takes Up Affirmative Action Case

    Supreme Court Takes Up Affirmative Action Case - Yahoo! News


    There should be a level playing field for all Regardless Of Age, Race, Gender, or Income.
  2. chicowalker

    chicowalker On the Roster

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    So are you for or against affirmative action? :)
  3. cupofjoe1962

    cupofjoe1962 Rookie

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    Affirmative actions time has passed !
    Nobody should receive an advantage based on the color of their skin.

    Why should a black child from a well off family be given an advantage over a poor
    asian. latino, or caucasian?
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2012
  4. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Do you consider this an unfair playing field?

    "The Texas legislature passed the "Top Ten Percent Law" in 1997 that mandates that Texas high school seniors in the top 10 percent of their class be automatically admitted to any Texas state university."

    The other question, all other things being equal, what criteria would you use to admit others? Even drawing names out of a hat would likely favor the majority race, making things unequal in a sense.
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2012
  5. cupofjoe1962

    cupofjoe1962 Rookie

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    Let me go out on a limb and say that maybe they should consider the SAT scores?

    When I go see a doctor, I want the most qualified doctor.
    I don't care if he is white, black, asian, latino, or from India.
    I sure don't want a doctor that satisfied a quota.
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2012
  6. patsfan13

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    The criteria for admission to a PUBLIC University should be made public and made available to everyone and should apply to all members of the public regardless of race, religion or sexual orientation. it should be an objective criteria.

    Private institutions should be allowed to have their own criteria and it shouldn't necessarily be mad public. For example self identified Black Universities should be able to discriminate on the basis of race. Religious Universities should be allowed to discriminate on the basis of their religious doctrine be it affiliation with a particular religious sect sexual orientation and so on.
  7. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I think you can make a responsible case that the SAT is not especially fair. Besides that, as far as the most qualified doctor, how do SATs measure bedside manner beside a sick child or a terminally ill senior? How do SATs measure one's ability to factor in a doctor's cultural knowledge in making a diagnosis? How do SATs measure the patient's comfort and trust in the doctor? No standard test measures ones ability to synthesize disparate information into a diagnosis.
  8. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I agree that public universities should have a publicly available objective criteria, though I think a university also has an educational role in ensuring a diverse background. The Texas solution (God, I can't believe I'm defending Texas!) seems to be a fair way to achieve that.

    I agree with you with regard to private institutions, though I think they have an ethical duty to make their criteria public, ethical not only to the public, but to alumni too.
  9. patsfan13

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    Well if you are admitting people based on whatever 'diversity' is popular at the moment then the objective criteria becomes meaningless, because any decision can be based on 'diversity'. There are enough Universities in this country where anyone who want to get an education can do so. If one has an institution that is highly competitive academically The students who meet the objective criteria should be admitted, if that means the student body is 80% Asian so be it.



    I'll check to see if hell has frozen over....:D
  10. Ilikehappyppl

    Ilikehappyppl Rookie

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    Affirmative action is reverse discrimination.....


    Everyone should be judged the same, they should take the color box off the all papers everywhere, Job Apps and Gov apps. I hope she wins! If this was a black girl **** would hit the freaking fan! But since she's white its no big deal to a lot of people.

    In 20 years, whites will be the minority, that's when Affirmative action will be put to an end, not because its wrong and a bad law but because whites will have access to it...

    If your a black man or women, or a Latino man or women, you should not want a crutch, that's what Affirmative action is! Instead of being accepted into a college for what you do and how well you do it, its about race and that's just plan wrong! Race should never have a role in our schools or our Gov.
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2012
  11. cupofjoe1962

    cupofjoe1962 Rookie

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    I think the SAT score is more important than the color of one's skin.
    If you have to take students based on their race, you lowering the
    academic standards.

    Where do we stop?

    Do Medical schools have to accept students based on thier race to meet
    some sort of quota?

    Do they have to graduate a quota ?

    I would prefer to have the smartest doctor attend myself or a family member
    in a life or death situation. Call me crazy, but not all doctors are the same.
    I use to think a doctor is a doctor, until I ran into a couple of real bad
    doctors. I would be glad to give you a couple of horror stories in private
    if you don't believe me.
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2012
  12. IcyPatriot

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    In my opinion I think racially and geographically diverse campuses are best for the students ... I think the social component to the college experience is extremely important to an education and to society in general. I think colleges should strive for diversity as long as the students qualify academically.
  13. DarrylS

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    In the rarified world of Pats Fans.Com there is an underlying assumption that there is a level playing field out there for all kids coming out of high school. Nothing could be further from the truth, if you check out the standardized tests from inner city schools their scores are generally lower than those from the suburbs... the drop out rates are higher.

    There needs to be something in place to insure that all kids have an opportunity to achieve... many kids do not do well in traditional school settings, but do well in Post Secondary education.

    Diversity is an ideal that we should strive for.. with that being said this student should have been admitted to this school and this legal action should be avoided.
  14. patsfan13

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    Ironically affirmative hurts the students it is meant to help:

    Capitalism Magazine - "Affirmative Action" and College Graduation Rates


    This only makes sense, say you take a kid with average math scores on the SAT and send him to MIT where a lot of the kids have the max score for math, how will that kid do when he is attending the same classes? He will struggle to keep up, he may flunk out of the school when that same student could succeed if placed on a campus with kids of similar academic scores.
  15. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I'm not disagreeing with you Joe, but I maintain there are many relevant measures of intelligence when it comes to a doctor: besides the type of intelligence measured by SAT and similar tests, you have to factor in steadiness of hands, good judgment, commonsense, the doctor's ability to explain options, and the doctor's ethics. Let's face it, intelligence is not the same as competence. There should certainly be a high minimum SAT (actually, I think it's the MCAT for med schools) score to get into med school, but other factors need to be taken into account as well. And I think race itself is relevant if we want to have doctors in Dorchester, Chelsea, and Southie! I'm just being realistic in that regard.
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2012
  16. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    Patters brings up a good point.....it's not just getting into college straight out of high school that gets people into med school or any other post-graduate university program. If you don't have the grades in college you're not going to get into med school.

    That being said, I wonder if anyone has any idea of how many American citizen doctors practicing in the United States graduated from med schools in Mexico or other foreign nations where the entrance requirements were much less stringent because they couldn't make the cut for a US school?

    I'm pretty sure you'd be surprised.
  17. PatsFanInVa

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    We now have 3 tests in the SAT: We have the verbal, the math, and a written essay.

    I do not know how badly one is pinged for bad spelling or punctuation in an essay; sadly, I doubt there is much of a demerit. But if syntax or usage are consistently off, I am sure one's score suffers.

    Now then: Is there a level playing field for people whose first language is not English? For that matter, how about the poor benighted student of the sciences, who gets excited and forgets the purposes of various parts of speech (to say nothing of spelling and punctuation)?

    The latter character may complain "But I scored 700 on the math, and that's all I want to do in life."

    Similarly, if you have a school that's extremely open and unstructured, how will someone who thrives on structure succeed there? How about the reverse case, a school that's best for highly structured rote learners -- what becomes of the original thinker there? Class rank, then, is also an uneven playing field.

    While nobody is arguing for "equality of results," the vast inequality of results within our current paradigm is striking. There are six Black Fortune 500 CEOs -- out of 11 who have ever made that level.

    Black Fortune 500 CEO's: Black Entrepreneurs, Black CEO, Black Executive, Black Billionaires, Entrepreneur Profile

    I believe Blacks are about 13-14% of the U.S. population. Let's call it 12 to make life simple. The numbers would predict, if the playing field were level, that 60 of the Fortune 500 CEOs would be Black -- unless you believe African Americans to be genetically inferior to European Americans.

    So yeah the playing field is level, except for that little order-of-magnitude difference.

    To be clear: There would always be variation, because we are not trying for state-regimented equality of outcomes.

    But a factor of 10 disadvantage? And that at the zenith of opportunity for African Americans?

    You can make arguments about affirmative action and the horrific specter of "reverse racism." The Supreme Court might say you're right. Yay.

    But whatever argument you make, don't insult everybody's intelligence by saying we all have the same shot in America, regardless of race.

    Final coda: What does it even mean to say you have a "level playing field" regardless of income?

    That one isn't even an argument from observable data -- it's just nonsensical on the face of it.

    PFnV
  18. Harry Boy

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    Choose your primary care doctor very carefully, we have a Chinese and an Indian, both BRILLIANT.
  19. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I think universities today use a more sophisticated criteria than race itself, but the overall goal is to foster diversity at universities as part of the educational experience. My first roommate in college was a wrestler who would periodically carry around a glass for his spit so that he could get down to the weight requirement. Nice guy, but needless to say he and I didn't have much in common. Knowing him was an education for me, and every bit as valid as a classroom education. Given the hurdles that many black kids have to overcome, it's no surprise that more of them fail at some better schools, but blacks have some catching up to do because of the harm caused by past discrimination. That said, if the measure used in these studies was not race, but was family background (such as, education, assets, and stability), I think the race-based difference would drop significantly.
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2012
  20. Drewski

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    PFnVA - While I personally found the stats your threw out about black CEOs interesting as it was a tidbit I hadnt known previously, I do think the CEO/corp America thing can be a little misleading.

    In my short-er working career there is one inalienable truth I have found in the corporate world (I have worked at both small shop vendors (<50 people) as well as my current position in a big corporate bank (>23K employees))...In the corporate world getting a head has nothing to do with what you know and everything to do with who you know. Advancing in my current company has nothing to do with what I know, how well I do my job or what "value add" (Buzz word, ZING!) I bring. It has everything to do with how I make some dude above me in the corporate ladder feel, how well I can get him what he needs and how well I can make him look.

    My point is getting to the CEO level takes as much political gamesmanship as it does "Education" talent, if not more so, and corporate politics is a race-neutral thing - regardless of being white, black, yellow, red, blue, or purple, how you play the game means everything and everyone can play.

    Yes, one could argue that if race Y makes up so much of the population then they should be represented accordingly in whatever window you are looking if the "field is truly even". But that assumes that the best and the brightest; IQ/SAT "whatever other score you want to use to determine best and bright", are the only ones making it up the corporate ladder and I can tell you (and you may know this from your own experience) that simply isnt true.

    A close family friend is extremely high up in a large local company here in MA. This guy can barely add 2+2 without Excel or a calculator, he also doesnt have the smarts to find his way out of a paper bag with a compass and a flashlight. But boy oh boy can he blow the pants of his boss with flattery and ego stroking.

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