Sunday’s NFL Games (week 4)

[jsull87]

Saw this on R/Patriots and thought it was very interesting. It was posted by u/LutzExpertTera in http://www.reddit.com/r/nfl/comments/2h994g/wrs_drafted_by_bill_belichick_since_2003/ .

"After another few weeks of homer-ly waiting for Aaron Dobson to break out, I wondered if it was in vain and decided to look at past Patriots WR draft picks. I capped it at 2003 because Deion Branch and David Givens were drafted in 2002, and 2003 is when I noticed the quality of drafted WR really start to decline.

Year Round Name Catches Yards TD Patriot Status
2003 2 Bethel Johnson 30 450 4 Traded after 3 seasons
2006 2 Chad Jackson 13 152 3 Released after 2 seasons
2013 2 Aaron Dobson 38 532 4 On roster
2009 3 Brandon Tate 24 432 3 Released after 2 seasons
2010 3 Taylor Price 3 41 0 Released after <2 seasons
2013 4 Josh Boyce 9 121 0 On practice Squad
2004 5 P.K. Sam 0 0 0 Released, never made roster
2008 5 Matt Slater 1 46 0 On roster, 3x Pro Bowl
2009 7 Julian Edelman 196 2030 11 On roster
2012 7 Jeremy Ebert 0 0 0 Released x2, never made roster
2014 7 Jeremy Gallon 0 0 0 Released, never made roster
Data current to week 3 of this year."

Very interesting look. One thing to note is a lot of people will say "yes but most of our draft picks have been late". I am by no means a BB draft hater, but i think it is a very sub par area of the pats recent drafting history.

Now for completeness you also have to realise that in 07 we traded for Moss and Welker who drew a ton of balls from TB and coult have hurt the development of Tate, Price Edelman e.t.c

But I think any way you slice it 5 picks in the 2nd/3rd round on WR's and we are yet to have a consistant reciever produce. Is sub par.

Sounds like a broken record but with the Pats WR situation over the past 3-4 years and with the data layed out above. I think it is an area that bears discussion. Is it the scouting department's fault? BB's and the front office for prioritising other possitions (i.e trading back rather than taking D Thomas, D Bryant or C Patterson). Remember if we pick those guys then we don't have the players we traded back for. Or is it the fault of a complex offensive system?

I am not sure, although it is clear Dobson has been hurt. It is too homerish of me to expect him to do well given the plight of pats WR's over time?

 

[patsfan-1982]

BB is from the bill parcells school of not Drafting WR's in the First round but I will give him a pass on Bryant and Thomas cause he Drafted two all pro TE's and a all pro FS in that Draft. Patterson I don't know what to think about him cause he is not a good WR he is Percy Harvin 2.0 more of a KR/PR/WR/RB not going to do anything great but will have a few big games a year not a patriot type of guy IMO.

but the best WR in that Draft DeAndre Hopkins went just two picks before Patterson and the pats could have traded up to get him he is averaging over 17 yards per catch and is on pace for over 1400 yards and over 10 TD's and get this he is doing it in the same system the pats run with a bad QB so in a year that the pats Drafted two bad WR's they could have traded up and got one great one

 

[Archeryaddict12]

Dobson, IMO will be the 2nd best wr on this team when it's all said in done. He had a chemistry with Tom last season until breaking his foot. As a fan you could tell Tom had trust in him and would favor him in some instances. He surpassed KT that season.

Then this year happened, Dobson has bulked up and had a decent preseason game. But as one poster noted, in that game his routes were rounded. And as a logical guess, the reason he has been out is because he isn't 100% ready to play. He is more then likely healed, but his routes might not be good yet, and with Tom not having the time to throw on long developing plays, Dobson becomes redundant when he will usually take more time to get separation farther down the field. Shifty receivers like Jules and dola are better suited for the offenses strengths now. Also lafell is seeing playing time because he is the best run blocking wr. That's why lafell is being used and has started progressing in the passing game.

When the offensive line solidifies and gives Tom time, Dobson will be a huge asset next to gronk as a larger receiver.

 

[jsull87]

This is more of a discussion piece than one being critical of WR's. One thing of note however is when looking at WR's. If you want a consistantly successfull WR it seems just like any other possition. Round 1 and 2 is where you need to look. Last year out of the top 15 WR's 10 were selected in the top 50 picks in their draft.

But as mentioned if you're selecting Wr's in the 1st then you aren't selecting OL, DL e.t.c

IMO this looks like a scouting issue to me rather than a system problem or FO not throwing enough picks at it problem.

A funny post by a Ravens fan mentioned that 2 of the better GM's over the past decade in BB and Ozzie both have very poor records at drafting WR's which is a coincidence.

 

[FCB02062]

you could pretty much do the same thing with the Pats drafting r.e. defensive backs - DB's are probably more of an indictment on Belichick the GM. Felger brought up a pretty sobering, disappointing item yesterday - against Oakland the Patriots starting offensive lineup had ONE first round draft pick (Solder, and he was f#cking terrible). Is that how you surround one of the best quarterbacks in the NFL?

 

[Nordberg]

Having a QB like Brady and surrounding him with garbage at WR is likespending money on a wicked tits washing machine and having no cloths.

One thing that is getting lost in all the Brady bashing lately is Brady's place in history As much as Brady likes winning......I also think he thinks about his legacy. He would never say it, but the whole Brady vs. Manning thing IS important to him.

Anyone that was on the fence as to who is better is clearly picking Manning now. Brady must be throwing **** around the house when he turns on a Denver game and sees what Manning has been giving to work with. (going back to Indy as well)

Wouldn't it be a shame to find out Brady hasn't really lost anything.....it's just that the talent he's working with is that bad.

I suggest someone go back and do the same pick/draft with Manning going back to Indy. It's unbelievable at the discrepancy in the weapons between the two QB's

The only decline I see from Brady right now is a decline in confidence

 

[Big-T]

Why do people keep mentioning Patterson? He couldn't run a route if his life depended on it and he's as dumb as rocks so wouldn't have even got past the first page of the Pats playbook.

 

[patriot1136]

Too bad about Bethel Johnson and Chad Jackson. I expected more from both of those guys

 

[borg]

Having a QB like Brady and surrounding him with garbage at WR is likespending money on a wicked tits washing machine and having no cloths.

One thing that is getting lost in all the Brady bashing lately is Brady's place in history As much as Brady likes winning......I also think he thinks about his legacy. He would never say it, but the whole Brady vs. Manning thing IS important to him.

Anyone that was on the fence as to who is better is clearly picking Manning now. Brady must be throwing **** around the house when he turns on a Denver game and sees what Manning has been giving to work with. (going back to Indy as well)

Wouldn't it be a shame to find out Brady hasn't really lost anything.....it's just that the talent he's working with is that bad.

I suggest someone go back and do the same pick/draft with Manning going back to Indy. It's unbelievable at the discrepancy in the weapons between the two QB's

The only decline I see from Brady right now is a decline in confidence

I agree.....you know this roster flux is killing him. He loses his uber TE combo, gets a pack of rookie WRs dropped in his lap, and now the O line rebuild. One thing after another.
And as you say, fans with short attention spans will base the "greatness" argument on their most recent memories. As far as legacy building, I give Manning a lot of credit for finding a team that ceded offensive control to him (again). GM, coach, coordinator, QB......that is a hell of a plate full of responsibility. When you "own" it and it works......of course you get elevated. No one calls Denver "Fox's" team. ....but many refer to NE as BB's team. Brady may be the ultimate team player, but Manning "owns" his team and that resonates in the public consciousness.
Fifty years from now when the stories fade and statistics are all that remain, people will see a tale of two very different tapes when comparing the latter years of both QBs. One was a record setter, one had his worst statistical period in his career....and that will be damaging to TB's legacy....and that will be a travesty.

 

[PatFanCraig]

Drafting Gronk doesn't excuse missing on WRs. I was soooooo pi$$ed when they traded the dez Bryant pick and it has bit them in the ***. At the time I was thinking as much as this team has struggled finding WRs and we pass on a total stud like Bryant. For the record I loved gronk, but I didn't like the back surgery at a young age and I was more intrigued by Grahams raw talent. Also how many surgeries on his back, acl, arm before he starts losing that great athleticism for a guy with a OLTs frame. Gronk doesn't excuse Taylor price over Eric decker and mike Williams. And McCourty failed miserably at cornerback. Lucky for us he is a good safety but his non aggressive tackling needs to improved. A great safety would have dropped moreno in the backfield in Miami, not been run over at the goal line. McCourty is replaceable, Dez Bryant isn't. Let the dislikes begin for saying something true, Dez Bryant is more valuable than McCourty.

However guys I'm just honest, I want Bill to be a great drafter, I think he is a great football mind and that's part of why I'm harsh on his drafting. Because I really do want and expect better from him. His drafting for a stretch has been terrible. I expect that from some teams but not bill. He is to good for that bs drafting. The other reason I'm a bigger sore loser than he is. I had to replace my roomies Plasma screen for throwing a dumbbell through it when the giants scored in the 2011 season Superbowl.( for record it was her 10 lb dumbell) And I was sooooo pi$$ed bill traded picks that became Clay Matthews and Dez Bryant. I felt they would have been the impact difference makers. LOL she was surprised I took off work next day and bought her a nicer one. She laughed at it because how laid back I was but hated losing. She said she planned on upgrading to a newer one anyways and I didn't have to do that but I would felt terrible not buying her the new one. There was only like 4 people at our party wanting the patriots to win since my friends hate the patriots and many of her friends are from new York and north jersey. Of course some peeps got it with their phones.

Anyways I don't set out to be a bill draft critic. I have expectations for many young patriots. I don't mind being wrong. Im a big Hightower fan, coworkers say thought you hated him. Yeah when he was getting benched and underperforming.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Drafting Gronk doesn't excuse missing on WRs. I was soooooo pi$$ed when they traded the dez Bryant pick and it has bit them in the ***. At the time I was thinking as much as this team has struggled finding WRs and we pass on a total stud like Bryant.

Sorry, but I find it hard to use the term "stud" to describe Bryant coming out of college, especially given the question marks regarding his ability to learn plays. [Just as in 2009, if the Pats had had Bryant, you would have had Edelman telling him where to line up just as Edelman did with Galloway.] During his first two years with the Dallas Cowboys there were rumors that if he didn't get his act together, they were considering trading him.

McCourty's ceiling might not be as high as Bryant's, but Bryant's floor was one hell of a lot lower. [To use a baseball analogy—pace, baseball haters—Bryant was a 50% chance of a home run, and a 50% chance of a strikeout. McCourty was maybe a 10% chance of a homerun, but a 90% chance of a triple. I don't blame Belichick for taking the odds there.]

 

[DSting]

All fair points about drafting WRs and DBs, but what GM doesn't have flaws? BB has a history of making excellent draft selections at LB and DL, and has generally done well at OLine--just not enough picks there recently, which leads to this year's woes. Also has picked consistently lower over the same 10-year period than any other team in the NFL.

 

[patsfan-1982]

you could pretty much do the same thing with the Pats drafting r.e. defensive backs - DB's are probably more of an indictment on Belichick the GM. Felger brought up a pretty sobering, disappointing item yesterday - against Oakland the Patriots starting offensive lineup had ONE first round draft pick (Solder, and he was f#cking terrible). Is that how you surround one of the best quarterbacks in the NFL?

not trying to defend BB but he is a defensive coach and he had 5 first round picks starting on defense for him plus revis and a first round rookie coming off the bench

 

[TruthSeeker]

Why do people keep mentioning Patterson? He couldn't run a route if his life depended on it and he's as dumb as rocks so wouldn't have even got past the first page of the Pats playbook.

So many receivers we've heard the same nonsense by Patriot's fans. How the **** do you know how dumb a person is and IF he could have or couldn't have learned the Patriot's playbook. You have no way of knowing whether a player could or couldn't have learned the playbook. You're telling me Deion Branch and David Givens were Rhode Scholars ? Desire plays a lot into whether someone can learn the playbook or not.
If you ever heard Welker speak, you would think he was a complet moron and would have never give him a chance to be a Patriot receiver, yet he turned out to be one of the alltime great at's receievers, and had Brady's utmost trust.

 

[State]

Nabbing Ras-I Dowling over the Maryland WR who has played so well for the Ravens has really hurt. Belichick revels in going against conventional wisdom. Sometimes conventional wisdom is, well, wise.

Dowling had never played a whole season since his sophomore year of high school. First round talent with a checkered history. Worth the first pick of the second? In hindsight, heck no.

 

[patsinthesnow]

Edelman could be on his way to a top 10 WR season & the probowl. Still funny that BB's best drafted WR is a 7th round QB to WR convert (I think Edelman now is better than Branch in his prime).

 

[patsfan-1982]

Drafting Gronk doesn't excuse missing on WRs. I was soooooo pi$$ed when they traded the dez Bryant pick and it has bit them in the ***. At the time I was thinking as much as this team has struggled finding WRs and we pass on a total stud like Bryant. For the record I loved gronk, but I didn't like the back surgery at a young age and I was more intrigued by Grahams raw talent. Also how many surgeries on his back, acl, arm before he starts losing that great athleticism for a guy with a OLTs frame. Gronk doesn't excuse Taylor price over Eric decker and mike Williams. And McCourty failed miserably at cornerback. Lucky for us he is a good safety but his non aggressive tackling needs to improved. A great safety would have dropped moreno in the backfield in Miami, not been run over at the goal line. McCourty is replaceable, Dez Bryant isn't. Let the dislikes begin for saying something true, Dez Bryant is more valuable than McCourty.

However guys I'm just honest, I want Bill to be a great drafter, I think he is a great football mind and that's part of why I'm harsh on his drafting. Because I really do want and expect better from him. His drafting for a stretch has been terrible. I expect that from some teams but not bill. He is to good for that bs drafting. The other reason I'm a bigger sore loser than he is. I had to replace my roomies Plasma screen for throwing a dumbbell through it when the giants scored in the 2011 season Superbowl.( for record it was her 10 lb dumbell) And I was sooooo pi$$ed bill traded picks that became Clay Matthews and Dez Bryant. I felt they would have been the impact difference makers. LOL she was surprised I took off work next day and bought her a nicer one. She laughed at it because how laid back I was but hated losing. She said she planned on upgrading to a newer one anyways and I didn't have to do that but I would felt terrible not buying her the new one. There was only like 4 people at our party wanting the patriots to win since my friends hate the patriots and many of her friends are from new York and north jersey. Of course some peeps got it with their phones.

Anyways I don't set out to be a bill draft critic. I have expectations for many young patriots. I don't mind being wrong. Im a big Hightower fan, coworkers say thought you hated him. Yeah when he was getting benched and underperforming.

watch Bryant first two years in the NFL bad/wrong route running and drops lets be real how long does Brady put up with that before he stops throwing to him and BB cuts him ? then they don't Draft McCourty or Gronk and they were never Drafting Graham so the pats would end up with no one out of the deepest Draft in over 10 years that would have been a big fail IMO.

they draft at the bottom of the Draft every year and they trade down even more so the scouting has to be more then just good and maybe not rely so much on a hand full of schools that they have inside info at but that's just my opinion

 

[Fencer]

The claim about lack of offensive talent is a bit overstated. Vollmer and Gronk are both 2nd-round picks who've garnered All-Pro selections. Solder is of course a 1st-rounder. IIRC, Vereen was a 2nd-rounder and Ridley a 3rd-rounder in the same draft. Dobson is probably a starter from the 2nd-round if not hurt. Brady is one of the greatest late-round picks in NFL history; Edelman is one of the better ones currently active.

 

[PatFanCraig]

not trying to defend BB but he is a defensive coach and he had 5 first round picks starting on defense for him plus revis and a first round rookie coming off the bench

Not trying to defend bill, Really?? Because I see homers defend his every move and get their pants all wadded when his draft failure is pointed out. You all say is a great gm then make excuses why he had no impact players. And say he drafts at bottom of round 1. Lots of all pros come from late round 1 then next couple rounds. He made some nice moves getting extra picks but then squandered most of them. In 2011 he could have had any player he wanted. To tell you the truth I hated many of them picks but talked myself into liking them because bill picked them. Navorro Bowman was my favorite lb prospect ever but I talked myself into thinking spikes could be a 3 down backer because bill picked him

 

[Kontradiction]

Not trying to defend bill, Really?? Because I see homers defend his every move and get their pants all wadded when his draft failure is pointed out. You all say is a great gm then make excuses why he had no impact players. And say he drafts at bottom of round 1. Lots of all pros come from late round 1 then next couple rounds. He made some nice moves getting extra picks but then squandered most of them. In 2011 he could have had any player he wanted. To tell you the truth I hated many of them picks but talked myself into liking them because bill picked them. Navorro Bowman was my favorite lb prospect ever but I talked myself into thinking spikes could be a 3 down backer because bill picked him

I think Spikes could have been a three down LB if he took his burpees a little more seriously.