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StubHub Counterpunches

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by QuiGon, Dec 20, 2006.

  1. QuiGon

    QuiGon Banned

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  2. SeanBruschi54

    SeanBruschi54 Rookie

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    #24 Jersey

    How could you possibly think that StubHub is correct in what they are doing?

    Obviously you must be a season ticket holder to actually think what they are doing is right.
  3. pats1

    pats1 Moderator PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Stubhub's countersuit is ridiculous.

    "StubHub said the Patriots have attempted to monopolize the ticket resale market by revoking the tickets of any fan caught reselling them anywhere but on the club's own TeamExchange website, which is operated by Tickemaster."

    So StubHub is saying the Patriots hold a monopoly over the "ticket resale market" because the Patriots do it legally and StubHub doesn't?

    Isn't that like saying companies that sell medical marijuana hold an unjust monopoly over the marijuana market because they do it legally and everyone else doesn't?

    ...

    I don't know why you think StubHub is in the right, QuiGon.

    Bah, alas! I now remember that thread awhile back. It's all clear now. You were the only person on Earth that believed in unregulated capitalism.

  4. PatsFan37

    PatsFan37 Rookie

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    #37 Jersey



    Are you kidding? Their case is a technicality, that passing along Ticketmaster's $12.50 service fee constitutes scalping, when StubHub routinely sells $80 tickets for several hundred dollars.

    Either they're desperate, because losing the season's ticket holders would cost them tons of money, or they're trying to improve their negotiating position for a settlement.
  5. QuiGon

    QuiGon Banned

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    Well it was unfair of me to give a one-sentence throwaway line like "I agree with what StubHub is doing" without being specific... so here are some specifics...

    1) I favor open markets with no regulations on re-selling tickets (and it looks like scalping is about to become legal in the Commonwealth). Despite what others will tell you, this is the system which favors consumers the most. Yeah, popular games are going to cost money. It's called supply and demand. There are plenty of idiots that think that enforcing scalping laws help consumers get cheaper access to tickets, but that's bullcrap pure and simple.

    2) The Patriots are extremely hypocritical with regards to the whole thing (sorry, but it's true). They don't want you scalping, but if you want tickets with that Super Bowl package from their "official travel agency" then you better be prepared to shell out 4 times face value.

    3) Personally I don't like StubHub because their fees are outrageous. Why anyone (either a buyer or a seller) would ever use StubHub over eBay is beyond me... but I have no problem with them operating in the manner they do.
  6. AStack75

    AStack75 Rookie

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    The New England Patriots still sell tickets through RazorGator and PrimeSport (the official brokers/agents). The only reason they are suing StubHub (which is essentially the same as RazorGator) is because they aren't getting their cut.

    The hypocracy that exists with the New England Patriots and their ticket policies is ridiculous.

    Why do you think only a handful of season ticket holders get SB tix in the lottery? Because the team gives them to PrimeSport to sell at a markup. PrimeSport....the official Super Bowl travel agent of the New England Patriots.

    http://www.razorgator.com/tickets/s...gland-patriots-tickets/?performance=4252001|1

    http://www.primesport.com/iprotour/fpsale.asp?action=NEW&PID=PP101981
    [No game ticket needed: Deduct (US$-2,200.00) per ticket.]
  7. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ---- JAG ----- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey

    The Patriots pay the players and all the employees of the orginization. they pay all the utility bills, insurance bills, blah...blah...blah. :blahblah:

    They have all the right to make money how they wish ... even if it includes reselling their own tickets...how any fan of the Patriots can brag about their orginizations excellance from top to bottom and begrudge them earning $$$ from that process is guilty of two-faced pettiness.

    Anyone here who owns their own business (I do) knows how difficult it is to turn a profit. Kraft puts alot of $$$ into the team and the stadium .... that increases their value ... but he is deserving of putting some cash in his family's pockets ... I would assume this is one way to do it.

    Selling a ticket which is corporate property goes into corporate income and is taxed corporately as well as the NFL getting some portion of sales.

    Taking a fee from reselling a ticket qualifies a person as an independant contractor...which means you take 100% of your money and you are resonsible for the federal and state income taxes yourself... it's a great way of putting cash in your pocket when you know you have other personal expenses that you can use against that income to defray your taxes.

    In other words the Krafts as all business people do have personal expenses they cannot give to the corporation to defray corporate taxes. So, instead of the corporation taking in income for which it has no expenses to reduce tax liability ... they personally take in the income ... they use those personal expenses now to reduce the ticket fee income and they get to put more $$$ in their pocket with no cut going to the NFL ... Makes lots of sense to me .... American as apple pie.
  8. AStack75

    AStack75 Rookie

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    I don't have any problem with the team making a buck. The problem I do have it with the Super Bowl tickets. The SB teams are alloted a certain percentage (17.5% for the AFC team/17.5% for the NFC team if I recall correctly) of the total SB tickets. The Krafts could and SHOULD distribute these tickets to their fans who have supported the team financially all season long. Yet the choose to give them to PrimeSport to make even more money from their fans buy scalping Super Bowl tickets for thousands of dollars.

    When the team does this but then turns around and sues another company for doing the same thing. That is what pisses me off. It is hypocracy.

    The fact the NFL teams can get away with scalping their own tickets.... I just can't go along with that.
  9. QuiGon

    QuiGon Banned

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    The Patriots are definitely hypocritical about the whole thing, but so is the league overall. They came down on Dennis Green for scalping his tickets, but then they turn around and do the same thing themselves.

    The whole point of the Patriots' original lawsuit against StubHub is based in hypocrisy. They are not suing StubHub on principle, they are suing because they don't want anyone doing what StubHub is doing unless they get a part of the profits. Now fact is most teams (I would guess about 2/3rds) have deals with StubHub where StubHub is the official ticket reseller, and season ticket holders and interested buyers are allowed to exchange with the team's approval (needless to say, the team gets a cut).

    ProFootballTalk had a great article about this very issue, and how a lot of teams just wish the Patriots would STFU. It's not something that the powers-that-be want a lot of attention drawn to.
  10. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ---- JAG ----- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey


    When StubHub pays the bills they can make some profit. Stealing the Patriots product and brandname to make a buck ... no different than copying anything and reselling it with no expense for the product that makes you $$$. Sorry, but I think you are missing it here ... on the street it's called leeching ... the word for people like StubHub is C0CKROACH.
  11. spacecrime

    spacecrime Rookie

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    Hmm, methinks that it is an idiot who thinks that $800 a ticket is less than $99 a ticket.

    Please explain why selling tickets for as much as you can possibly get results in lower prices than capping the amount at $99.

    You can believe in uncontrolled supply and demand all you want, but don't say it results in the best consumer prices. It results in higher corporate profits. Nothing wrong with that necessarily, but the higher profits come from increased consumer prices.
  12. QuiGon

    QuiGon Banned

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    Excuse me, but nobody is stealing anything. That's a load of crap and you know it.
    That is a horrible analogy and the situation you gave has nothing to do with what is going on. Your analogy is so horrible that it cannot even be addressed logically.

    I am not a season ticket holder, but if I was then I have bought the tickets legally from the team who determined the price they would sell them to me. If I decide to re-sell those tickets at a profit through StubHub, then that's just the capitalistic society within which we live. I am not selling forged tickets, I haven't stolen them from anyone and nobody is forced to pay my asking price. Furthermore, we are talking about a luxury good... we are not talking about heating oil or medicine or bottled water during a hurricane.

    Please tell me why I can wait in line for 48 hours to buy a PS3 for $600 and turn around and sell it for $2,000 and that's perfectly fine, but I can't do the same with tickets to a football game. If I buy a $500 Tom Brady football card and he wins 3 more Super Bowls, I can turn around and sell it for $1,000 and that's perfectly fine. Please explain to me why you think football tickets are so special that they get their own laws.
  13. QuiGon

    QuiGon Banned

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    And methinks that it is an idiot and a totally simplistically minded moron who interprets that statement from what I have said. Fortunately I believe you cannot be so stupid as to believe that that is what I said so I conclude you are merely being deliberately belligerent.
    Because there is no availability at $99. Let's suppose for the sake of argument that scalping was illegal and enforced and anyone that scalped a ticket would get struck down and killed by a bolt of lightning the moment they did it. Face value of a Super Bowl ticket is $500. How many $500 Super Bowl tickets do you think you're going to have access to...? The answer is simple: ZERO. But when I wanted to go to Super Bowl 39 to see the Patriots, I had access to tickets. Anyone that wants to go can go - they just have to pay what the market values the tickets at. They cost me $5,000 on the open market and I freely paid that amount because it was worth it because $5,000 isn't that much to me. But if there's no open market then I can't go because I have zero availability.

    As a consumer I have benefitted from the simple fact that the tickets are available to me on the open market whereas there is zero availability without the open market. Now sure... the 95% of the population that can't afford to spend $5,000 on football tickets whines and screams and moans about how unfair the system is... they are jealous of the people that can afford to pay that much and they are also jealous of the dude who just made $4,000 profit for doing nothing. But that's what we call capitalism.
    You're putting words in my mouth. I didn't say it resulted in the best consumer prices. But what it does do is allow the marketplace to set the price. Consumers benefit from this system because without this system in place, there is simply no availability of premium tickets at all.

    I know the unemployed morons amongst us who live in their mommy's basements hate the fact that other people have more money than they do, and think it's really really really unfair that people get to buy things that they can't, but that's the system in which we live. If you don't like it, feel free to emigrate to nice communistic countries like Vietnam or Cuba.

    The logical flaw you people are employing is you foolishly believe that if scalping is illegal and enforeced, then there will be plenty of tickets available for everyone at face value. That just ain't the way the world works.
  14. dhamz

    dhamz Rookie

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    Because the law of only being able to sell tickets at face value applies only to me and you. A liscensed ticket broker (Ace Tickets for example) can still legally sell them for whatever they can get.

    If everyone could resell their tickets legally at fair market value, the brokers would have more competition and prices would fall.
  15. PatsRI

    PatsRI PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It's simple if the Pats and Mass. law say they can't sell these tickets with that markup then what's the question here? If StubHub was selling them with only the 10% then there would be no problem. The countersuit will go nowhere. And I think the original suit will be upheld because it is state law.

    I could care less if the Pats are trying to make money. It's called capitalism. Let Stubhub buy their own team and see what they say when someone tries top make money off them without permission. If Mass law was different then StubHub has the right to make money to. As I see it one party is within the law and another is not.

    One solution to those whining about unavailability is pay to be on the waiting list and use the Ticketexchange that the team runs. It'll cost you less then StubHub. I got 3 tickets to the Indy game 2 days before the game 5 rows up behind the Pats bench. Games like the Jets there were hundreds of tix available. It's legal and less expensive if you want to go to a few games a year.
  16. QuiGon

    QuiGon Banned

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    There have been several articles in local newspapers over the past 6 months detailing the current state law and a very strong movement within the legislature to do away with it. This tends to involve Red Sox tickets more than the Patriots, but I think it is very safe to say that the current state laws in Massachusetts are not going to be around for much longer.
  17. bresna

    bresna PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Massachusetts laws on this are vague to begin with. I personally know two people who were arrested and spent several hours in jail, for re-selling tickets below face value!

    I'd be more inclined to side with the Patriots if they dumped Ticketmaster as their sole ticket agency. Ticketmaster's fees are outrageous. A $10 service charge plus an $8.50 delivery fee per ticketfor a completely electronic transaction should be against the law too. It's criminal. Talk about StubHub making money for doing "nothing" all you want - Ticketmaster is the king of that game!
  18. Clonamery

    Clonamery PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I belieeve the Yankees are going to be doing the same thing.....trying to get their cut......StubHub is EBay with a loan shark's mentality.
  19. robd54

    robd54 Rookie

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    What bothers me as someone on the waiting list is the fact that a decent percentage of season ticket holders only keep their tickets to make a profit, and if the team was strict on it maybe there wouldn't be such a ridiculous wait. Personally I LOVE the TicketExchange, I was able to get tickets to every home game this year, all excellent seats. It allows me to get these good seats at face (slightly above with the fees). For instance, the Texans game we were on the visitor side, section 132, row 1, seats 1/2. RIGHT on the 50. To get those on stubhub would've been about $500/ticket, that's just wrong. I hope the team continues to cracks down and promote the use of the TicketExchange, it allows REAL fans to get season tickets and/or go to the games.
  20. mikiemo83

    mikiemo83 Rookie

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    in my opinion as a reward for placing your name on the waiting list and paying the fee you should not have to pay handling charges if you use electronic transfer of the ticket or pick them up Directly.

    Only should have additional charges to offset cost of shipping them via FED-EX or whatever means
  21. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ---- JAG ----- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey

    Good try Quigon ... you need to brush up on your law. Tickets are permission to watch a game ... legally you only own permission and the ticket says that permission can be revoked at any time. You have no legal right ro sell that permission ... only they do. ticketmaster can do it because they have an agreement with the NFL...they pay for the permission to sell the permission.
  22. Danny Boy®

    Danny Boy® Banned

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    Quiggy me boy...good to see you finally smartened up! Didnt we just argue over this?

    By the way....wanna buy my playoff tix? I'll sell 'em cheap!
  23. pats1

    pats1 Moderator PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Excellent point. Here's how the back of the ticket reads, as of August 2005:

    "This ticket and all season tickets are revocable licenses. The Patriots reserve the right to revoke such licenses, in their sole discretion, at any time and for any reason. Patriots may refuse admission to, or eject, any ticket holder without refund if the holder fails to comply with any applicable rules or terms, or is deemed to be disorderly. Inappropriate behavior and/or abusive language may result in ejection (without refund), arrest, prosecution, forfeiture of season ticket privileges, and other legal action. Purchase of season tickets does not entitle purchaser to renewal in subsequent year. The holder of this ticket voluntarily assumes all risks of property loss and personal injury incident to the game or related events. [following text is capitalized on ticket] ANY NON-LICENSED INDIVIDUAL RESELLING THIS TICKET BY ANY METHOD INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION, IN PERSON, ON AN AUCTION WEB SITE, OR OTHERWISE OVER THE INTERNET, AND ANY LICENSED INDIVIDUAL OR ENTITY RESELLING THIS TICKET IN VIOLATION OF APPLICABLE LAW, IS SUBJECT TO ARREST, LEGAL ACTION AND LOSS OF SEASON TICKET PRIVILEGES. All sales are final. This ticket cannot be replaced if lost, destroyed or stolen. Season ticket accounts can not be transferred or split. No person, regardless of age, may enter the Stadium without a ticket, and re-entry is prohibited. [following text is italicized on ticket] The Patriots expressly prohibit the use of tickets for advertising and promotional purposes (including contests and sweepstakes or other trade purposes.) The ticket holder will not transmit or aid in transmitting any description, account, picture, reproduction or other depiction in any media now or hereafter existing, of all or any part of the football game or related events to which this ticket admits holder. [Huh?] [Following text underlined by me] The Patriots and the NFL reserve the right to seek criminal prosecution of, and commercial damages from, any person who engages in any prohibited ticket use. Commercial damages will include, but not be limited to, the price charged by the Patriots for similar uses. Patrons may not bring umbrellas, alcoholic beverages, food, bottles, cans, containers, irritants (e.g. noisemakers), cameras [security doesn't care about this one], visual or audio recording equipment, or other inappropriate items into the Stadium. The holder grants permission to the NFL, the Patriots, other participating clubs, NPS LLC, and their designees to use the holder's image, likeness, and/or voice in connection with any broadcast (live or recorded) or any other transmission or reproduction of the game, in whole or in part, and for any other purpose whatsoever, including commercial purposes. Dates and times of games are subject to change without refund."
  24. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ---- JAG ----- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey

    Thanks ... I'm getting the complaint itself... It's probably long but a good lesson in law just to read it. I'm going to then send it to Ian so he can put it on the site somewhere for members to read. I'm not sure anyone has already done this ... so, if not...it's on it's way from a lawyer.
  25. QuiGon

    QuiGon Banned

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    I don't think we argued over this particular issue.... I mean, you call the Patriots cheap no matter what they do, and I just calls 'em as I sees 'em... When they behave in a hypocritical manner, I will gladly call them out on it...

    I need 1 for the playoffs, so I will probably go to the wonderful free market system that is eBay...
  26. QuiGon

    QuiGon Banned

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    That's a load of crap. Right now in the Commonwealth, it is illegal to scalp tickets, but it is not illegal to resell them at (or below) face value. So to say "only the Patriots can sell tickets" is just not true. Now that may be Patriot policy, but that ain't the law (there's a difference). Plus it just isn't realistic to assume every single season ticket holder goes to every single game and never sells the tickets for face value to a buddy or relative if they can't make it.

    If I am a STH and I sell Patriots tickets at face value, the Patriots may revoke my season tickets but I haven't broken any laws and I would not be subject to any fines or other punishment.

    Sorry... I know you're really really trying and I know you're really really proud of yourself because you think you got me, but you didn't.... Try again.
  27. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ---- JAG ----- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey


    Not trying to get you ... just saying "it is what it is"

    I'll post the complaint when I get it...then we'll all see.

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