Stop blaming the coordinators

[RDS11]

It wasn't coaching when Brady overthrew Moss and Cromartie made the pick at the 3 yard line.

Actually, that wasn't such a bad play. It was on third down, and it was pretty much outside the field goal range so the Pats didn't lose any points.

What wasn't good was the Jets drive that followed. From the 3 yard line, the defense allowed a TD to a quarterback that, prior to that game day, hits just above 50% of his passes and has almost twice as many INTs than TDs.

The offense played badly yesterday, but once again when it happens the defense cannot bail them out. It's the same story since 2005.

Maybe Crennel was to Belichick what Belichick was to Parcells. But the sad truth is, Belichick has had 6 years, and drafts, to rebuild this defense since the last championship and for now it doesn't look good. It's either a coaching problem or a GM problem, but in both cases Belichick is responsible.

 

[D-Money]

Any way they screw it up even more with the raiders draft pick?We need to pray that the raiders stink and have a 4-12 season!!I am not gonna give up on Butler yet but he has 1 year under his belt already.

 

[mr3putt]

If the reality is that if we have fine coaches and coordinators, and they have been doing a fine job in the second half oever last 18 games, then I guess our offensive talent is much weaker that I would have thought.

I guess my point is that although execution is a factor I don't believe that lack of talent is the cause.

Coaching is

Ryan hit BB with the 3-4 man rush and all hands cover defense in 2nd half.
Shades of Giants -Buffalo SB
You must smashmouth that D and then play action against it
Slants and screens as well
Lobbing the ball to Moss is no answer.

We did nothing to help Butler with the safeties.
We failed to chuck Keller at the line

COACHING!!!!!!

OK
I'm done
Thanks for listening

 

[Ring 6]

Actually, that wasn't such a bad play. It was on third down, and it was pretty much outside the field goal range so the Pats didn't lose any points.

What wasn't good was the Jets drive that followed. From the 3 yard line, the defense allowed a TD to a quarterback that, prior to that game day, hits just above 50% of his passes and has almost twice as many INTs than TDs.

The offense played badly yesterday, but once again when it happens the defense cannot bail them out. It's the same story since 2005.

Maybe Crennel was to Belichick what Belichick was to Parcells. But the sad truth is, Belichick has had 6 years, and drafts, to rebuild this defense since the last championship and for now it doesn't look good. It's either a coaching problem or a GM problem, but in both cases Belichick is responsible.

They lost 6 points because if Moss gives it everything, its a TD

 

[mr3putt]

They lost 6 points because if Moss gives it everything, its a TD

Rubbish AJ
Moss never had position
I think he picked up the ball late and failed to make a strong effort to break up the play.
Go figure
At no point did that pass have touchdown written on it

 

[Deus Irae]

Brady said in his presser that the Jets played more safety coverage in the second half. The Pats did not adjust and instead kept attacking as if was a pressure scheme taking deep shots.

You neglect the elephant in the room: Revis went out of the game. However, a quick look at the play-by-play:

First drive, 3rd quarter
Short pass to Hernandez for 7
Short pass incomplete to Edelman
Short pass to Faulk for 7
Short pass to Welker for -2
Pass to Moss picked by Cromartie at the 3

Second drive, 3rd quarter
Pass to Gronk over the middle. Brady underthrew it or it's completed.
Another short pass over the middle, incomplete

Third drive, 3rd quarter
Long pass to Moss, tipped by Moss and picked by Poole.

Fourth drive, 4th quarter
Short pass, incomplete, to Moss
Pass to Crumpler, incomplete
Deep pass to Moss, incomplete

Fifth drive, 4th quarter
Short pass to Morris
Short pass to Morris
Short pass to Moss
Short pass to Hernandez, PI
Sacked trying to pass

Your argument really doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Another lack of adjustment was providing over the top help for our young safeties. The game called for stopping the run. Edwards already beat Butler once so some over the top help would have been nice the second time around.

So now you're going to a defensive adjustment based upon Butler? Come on. Corners get hung out to dry on some plays. That's a part of life. And, as has been noted time and again, the defense is running exactly what Belichick wants it to run.

Another issue I have is with confidence. When the players have confidence in each other and the plan things go well. When the plan stops working players start improvising.

That's where coaching comes into play. The coaches collect information from the field about what the players are seeing and adjust accordingly. When things don't work and there is no player to coach communication confidence is lot and players freelance and get out of synch.

That's not coaching. That's player experience and maturity. The same thing happens in hockey, baseball, basketball and every other sport in the world. A young player sees someone make a mistake and, rather than sticking to his assignment, he goes to make up for the other mistake, thus leaving his assignment blown and compounding the mistake. We see this all the time.

A good coach will recognize when this is happening and adjust the plan on the fly. My issue is not with the plan but rather the lack of adjustments made by the coaches. When the players recognize the lack of adjustments or bad adjustments they lose confidence in the coaching staff. I think this happened a little bit yesterday.

You've got no point here about coaching, though. You were flat-out wrong about the offense, and you're arguing a defensive point that makes no real sense, unless you're claiming that a defense that was getting shredded all over the field should have started doubling Braylon Edwards.

That would make for an interesting discussion, but not doing that is pretty obviously not something as simple as a failure to adjust.

 

[mgteich]

If understand you correctly the reason that the team did not finish in the red zone last and year and didn't score much in the second half is due to the loss of Bruschi, Harrison, Seymour, and Seau. I do understand that that defensive does give the offense opportunities, but to blame the defense for the failure of the offense to score seems misdirected.

OFFENSE
Do you think that the offense has better talent than last year, especially given the fact that Brady is in better health? Vollmer is indeed more experienced.

2009 Watson, Baker, Aiken, Stanback, Galloway
2010 Grankowski, Crumpler, Tate, Herndanez, Price

DEFENSE
Are Brace, Pryor, Butler, Wilhite and Chung somehow less experienced this year?
Or are you bemoaning bringing in Spikes and Cunningham for Seau and Burgess?
Is bringing G. Warren in place of T Warren a great reduction in experience?

I do agree that Ty Warren and Bodden are major losses. However, losing a couple of players is part of a normal preseason.

The percentage is irrelevant. It's pretty easy to figure out who's clueless regardless of what they answer on a particular poll. People who consistently blame the playcalling year after year, regardless of changes at the coordinator level are people not worth listening to when it comes to evaluating wins and losses.



Who has said that this team has better and more experienced talent this year? That's obviously not true. This team has clearly gotten younger and less experienced, particularly on defense.



1.) I've not "whined" about the quality of the team's offensive talent. I've noted it for what it is. If you think that's whining, it's time for you to reassess your interpretation of the word. Moss is an elite WR. Brady is the best QB in the business. Welker is the best slot WR in the game. Guess what? Other players aren't at that level, and even the best make mistakes.

2.) This team has gone young over the past two seasons, and with the move to youth, you get mistakes. It's not surprising that the team's amazing record with second half and 4th quarter leads took a significant hit last season, given that the team lost Bruschi, Harrison, Seymour and Seau (for all intents and purposes). It's not surprising that such losses and struggles continue this season. It's what happens with young, inexperienced teams.

When people here stop pretending there's a magic bullet and start understanding that there are numerous factors which have nothing at all to do with playcalling, the board will be better served. People have griped about Weis and Crennel. People have griped about McDaniels and Pees. Now people are griping about O'Brien and the unnamed D.C.. There's a pattern here, and it's not a pattern of lousy coordinators.



To paraphrase something BB said on WEEI just a little while ago, the team doesn't have any defensive plays that are designed to give up 39 yards.



No one, including yourself, has been able to explain this mythical outcoaching. No team calls a perfect game, but that's not what we're talking here.


Or is it?

 

[Deus Irae]

Actually, that wasn't such a bad play. It was on third down, and it was pretty much outside the field goal range so the Pats didn't lose any points.

I agree, but others are pointing to it as an excuse to bash the coordinator.

What wasn't good was the Jets drive that followed. From the 3 yard line, the defense allowed a TD to a quarterback that, prior to that game day, hits just above 50% of his passes and has almost twice as many INTs than TDs.

But, let's face it, this defense has the potential to be the worst defense in the NFL on any given Sunday. That's what happens when you put out a lineup like the Patriots do. People are simply going to have to realize that inconsistency is going to be the name of the game for that defense.

The offense played badly yesterday, but once again when it happens the defense cannot bail them out. It's the same story since 2005.

Maybe Crennel was to Belichick what Belichick was to Parcells. But the sad truth is, Belichick has had 6 years, and drafts, to rebuild this defense since the last championship and for now it doesn't look good. It's either a coaching problem or a GM problem, but in both cases Belichick is responsible.[/QUOTE]

2007 happened, and the team went 16-0. 2008 was lost when Brady went down, yet the team went 11-5. People go way overboard when talking about the decline of this team. You're really talking about 1 year (2009) where Belichick was lousy as both a GM and coach. That's it.

 

[UofApatsfan]

Hmmm, I dunno. While there may be quibbles w/a few of those player assessments, even conceding they're all correct for the sake of argument, there is a pronounced 1st half/2nd half trend that's been going on for more than a year. That would suggest coaching.

Yup.

In the first half when they were mixing the run and pass, the offense was moving the ball. There is no reason to abandon the run (especially when you're winning), and once they did the offense fell apart, and the defense got worse and worse because of how gassed it was from repeated 3 and outs. If they have the means to be a 2 dimensional offense in the 1st half, then they have the means to be a 2 dimensional offense in the 2nd half.

 

[mgteich]

BS
It is easy to see why Moss thinks that he underappreciated in New England.

They lost 6 points because if Moss gives it everything, its a TD

 

[Deus Irae]

If understand you correctly the reason that the team did not finish in the red zone last and year and didn't score much in the second half is due to the loss of Bruschi, Harrison, Seymour, and Seau. I do understand that that defensive does give the offense opportunities, but to blame the defense for the failure of the offense to score seems misdirected.

Given that I neither said nor implied that, perhaps you could shelve the passive-aggressive posting of nonsense, since you know full well my positions about last year, regarding both offense and defense.

OFFENSE
Do you think that the offense has better talent than last year, especially given the fact that Brady is in better health? Vollmer is indeed more experienced.

2009 Watson, Baker, Aiken, Stanback, Galloway
2010 Grankowski, Crumpler, Tate, Herndanez, Price

1.) Vollmer is struggling in the passing game early, and Connolly has been a weak spot on the line that was not there in 2009. On the other hand, Neal's healthier at the moment.

2.) I didn't notice you griping about the offense overmuch after week 1.

3.) What part of "execution" seems to be problematic for you?

4.) More talented is not the same as more experience or better. Nor, really, is it particularly relevant to what I've posted about the offense.

DEFENSE
Are Brace, Pryor, Butler, Wilhite and Chung somehow less experienced this year?
Or are you bemoaning bringing in Spikes and Cunningham for Seau and Burgess?
Is bringing G. Warren in place of T Warren a great reduction in experience?

I do agree that Ty Warren and Bodden are major losses. However, losing a couple of players is part of a normal preseason.

Call me when Chung's not getting his trial by fire as a starter, McCourty's not a rookie, Butler's not getting a trial by fire, Spikes isn't a rookie, Ty Warren's on the line, Bodden's starting on the right side, and Cunningham's not a rookie.

Your posts are usually much better than this. Perhaps the loss has affected you more than expected, because you're barely even rational here.

 

[letekro]

Maybe Crennel was to Belichick what Belichick was to Parcells. But the sad truth is, Belichick has had 6 years, and drafts, to rebuild this defense since the last championship and for now it doesn't look good. It's either a coaching problem or a GM problem, but in both cases Belichick is responsible.

Go look at where the Pats finished in scoring defense each of the last 5 years and report back with your findings before again posting such nonsense.

 

[Ring 6]

BS
It is easy to see why Moss thinks that he underappreciated in New England.

So when Moss is a step behind Cromartie (still turning his hips) at the 35 in man to man coverage with no safety help, Brady should expect Cromartie to beat him to the ball?
Just want to make sure I understand. We do NOT expect Moss to beat one on one coverage? That is too much to ask, we should appreciate him for not doing it all half?

 

[Off The Grid]

Given that I neither said nor implied that, perhaps you could shelve the passive-aggressive posting of nonsense, since you know full well my positions about last year, regarding both offense and defense.



1.) Vollmer is struggling in the passing game early, and Connolly has been a weak spot on the line that was not there in 2009. On the other hand, Neal's healthier at the moment.

2.) I didn't notice you griping about the offense overmuch after week 1.

3.) What part of "execution" seems to be problematic for you?

4.) More talented is not the same as more experience or better. Nor, really, is it particularly relevant to what I've posted about the offense.



Call me when Chung's not getting his trial by fire as a starter, McCourty's not a rookie, Butler's not getting a trial by fire, Spikes isn't a rookie, Ty Warren's on the line, Bodden's starting on the right side, and Cunningham's not a rookie.

Your posts are usually much better than this. Perhaps the loss has affected you more than expected, because you're barely even rational here.

Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn!!

 

[Ring 6]

BS
It is easy to see why Moss thinks that he underappreciated in New England.

And considering that this is the first time I have criticized Moss and did so after watching the play in question and seeing him fall far short of his abiility (actually 2 plays) I can really understand why you think I have it in for him.
Watch the plays and see what happens instead of trying to fit results into your preconceived coordinator blame
Let me ask you this.

If the OC gets Randy Moss single coverage is that a good scheme?

 

[mgteich]

We did go 10-6 in 2009 and we did win the division.

I'm not the one talking about the decline of the team.

I think that Belichick is one of the best GM's in the nfl.
I think that Belichick is one the best HC's in the nfl.
I think that Belichick is one of the best DC's in the nfl.
Belichick is one of the best secondary coaches in the nfl.
And I think Belichick could be one of the best OC in the nfl.

The issue is delegation. Just because the boss can do each job better than anyone else is not reason to try to do so. Belichick has succeeded. However, I think that the lack of top level help is catching up to us. It is not that we don't have reasonable position coaches. We do, except at QB. The issue is Belichick's blind spot. He wants no one around who might be in anyway be really responsible for anything. That is Belichick's job.

.
2007 happened, and the team went 16-0. 2008 was lost when Brady went down, yet the team went 11-5. People go way overboard when talking about the decline of this team. You're really talking about 1 year (2009) where Belichick was lousy as both a GM and coach. That's it.

 

[Ring 6]

Rubbish AJ
Moss never had position
I think he picked up the ball late and failed to make a strong effort to break up the play.
Go figure
At no point did that pass have touchdown written on it

Thats because you are watching the end of the play.
Look at where Moss is when Brady lets go. Its the 35, and there is absolutely no way a 100% effort from Moss doesnt have him behind Cromartie by the 3 yard line, after Cromarttie has to turn and run.

Rather than decide you disagree go watch the play. Its plain as day.

 

[Deus Irae]

We did go 10-6 in 2009 and we did win the division.

I'm not the one talking about the decline of the team.

I think that Belichick is one of the best GM's in the nfl.
I think that Belichick is one the best HC's in the nfl.
I think that Belichick is one of the best DC's in the nfl.
Belichick is one of the best secondary coaches in the nfl.
And I think Belichick could be one of the best OC in the nfl.

The issue is delegation. Just because the boss can do each job better than anyone else is not reason to try to do so. Belichick has succeeded. However, I think that the lack of top level help is catching up to us. It is not that we don't have reasonable position coaches. We do, except at QB. The issue is Belichick's blind spot. He wants no one around who might be in anyway be really responsible for anything. That is Belichick's job.

None of this post has anything to do with whether or not the coordinators were to blame for the loss to the Jets.

 

[mgteich]

Aah! I have forgotten. The memory of fans is exactly one game.

Blame the ZERO POINTS in the second on whoever you want. Blame Moss if you must. But consider that if belichick wasn't trying to be HC, OC, and secondary coach for the past year, our adjustments and production in the second half might be better.

You are correct, there is no way to prove the incompetence or fault of the coordinators. After all, had Moss made both catches, we might have won, and no one would have any critcism at all for the coaordinators and coaches.

None of this post has anything to do with whether or not the coordinators were to blame for the loss to the Jets.

 

[D-Money]

10-6 or 9-7 might be our final record overral.That colts game last year was brutal!!!We could have been easily 12-4 if it wasnt for some second half blowups!!!Hint Hint!!Thats the problem, finishing games!!!