Stevan Ridley

[NFLroughdraft]

But it is only "the turning point" because Davis is an impatient jackass, which goes against your ealier claim that Davis is a better drafter and GM than people give him credit for. That's why we went down this path, after all.

My earlier point was that he is a better drafter than people give him credit for. His coaching decisions have cost the team dearly.

 

[MaineMan]

Huh? I said that the Tuck Rule was the turning point for both organizations. It was. It doesn't matter who's at fault. It was the turning point for both organizations.

Trading Gruden away was a huge mistake (although 2 1sts and 2 2nds didn't seem like that bad of a haul at the time). Kraft would be pretty dumb to get rid of Belichick after 3 Super Bowls. If that call didn't get reversed though, can you say for certain that he wouldn't have dumped him after the following season?

To answer your other question, the Raiders fell off because their team was reeeeeaaaaaaallllllly old. They would have been bad for a couple of years regardless of who was coaching them. Still, it doesn't change the fact that THAT GAME was the turning point for both franchises.

I you're saying that the "Tuck Rule Game" coincided with the beginning of the Raiders' downfall, I agree. If you're implying that the call somehow "tipped the scales" and caused the downfall, I'd dispute that.

WRT the effect on the Pats, that call certainly DID seem to lift the team at the time and, perhaps, actually did have an extended effect on their confidence and subsequent fortunes. However, there was a tuck rule call earlier in the season that went against the Pats (Pennington and the Jets, IIRC). Had it not, and the Pats had WON that game, it might have changed the entire AFC playoff seeding. The Pats may have faced someone else - and possibly lost - or won. And Oakland may have lost to someone else - or won. Either way, though, Oakland was probably in for a significant slide.

 

[TealSox]

I you're saying that the "Tuck Rule Game" coincided with the beginning of the Raiders' downfall, I agree. If you're implying that the call somehow "tipped the scales" and caused the downfall, I'd dispute that.

WRT the effect on the Pats, that call certainly DID seem to lift the team at the time and, perhaps, actually did have an extended effect on their confidence and subsequent fortunes. However, there was a tuck rule call earlier in the season that went against the Pats (Pennington and the Jets, IIRC). Had it not, and the Pats had WON that game, it might have changed the entire AFC playoff seeding. The Pats may have faced someone else - and possibly lost - or won. And Oakland may have lost to someone else - or won. Either way, though, Oakland was probably in for a significant slide.

It seems a bit egocentric for Patriot fans to think that the Snow Bowl was THE monumental point in Raider history preceding their eventually downfall. While it is easy to peg their downfall on one game, the Raiders were built for short term results. They were a veteran team load with players like Gannon, Tim Brown, Lincoln Kennedy, Rob Woodson, Jerry Rice, Tyrone Wheatley, Charlie Garner, and Steve Wisniewski. And as we can argue, if you aren't building for the future, then your leading to failure.

The year before the Snow Bowl, the Raiders were knocked out of the playoffs by the Ravens with the help of Tony Siragusa landing on Gannon. Gannon was taken out of the game and the Ravens went on to win the Super Bowl. If you couple both the 2000 season and 2001 season, the Raiders could had easily gone to three Super Bowls back to back to back.

But as you know, injuries happen. There are things you can't plan for and in their despair, they threw Gruden out the door and continued to make bad decision after bad decision. Loaded with veterans, they lost their players with little to no compensation. They pushed through with the same philosophy of bringing in veteran talent like Kerry Collins, Warren Sapp, Ted Washington, Randy Moss and Bobby Hamilton with no success.

So hate the Patriots for the moves they make or don't make, but to field a consistently winning team year after year after year, for a better part of a decade is worthy praise. Belichick not only finds value in the draft, but he gets return for his veteran players.

 

[SteveKiner]

My earlier point was that he is a better drafter than people give him credit for. His coaching decisions have cost the team dearly.

You mention you had Vollmer ranked top 100 in the 2009 draft. What did you think of of Al Davis' choices in that draft? Was Heyward-Bey a good choice? How about Mitchell? Do you still think much of Al's choices? He did pretty well with with his 3rd and 4th rounders, where did you have Shaughnessy and Murphy ranked? Or any of the later picks? Do you have links to any of this?
You mention Veldheer being a 2010 version of Vollmer(that's a debate for another time), where did you have Veldheer ranked? Or McLane or Houston or Campbell? Was this a good draft for Al? Ford and Mcfadden good picks? Where did you have them? Do you have links?
I tend to agree with you, somewhat, that Al Davis get a bad rap on some of his picks but in the 2009 draft the first 2 picks were bad. The draft gurus said so. The mediots said so. Most fans said so. I am wondering what you said before the draft. The 3rd and 4th round picks were both very good. Most fans, mediots and gurus thought that Shaughnessy was a big reach and Murphy was an okay pick. They missed the ball on both of those. Both were much better than advertised. What were your thoughts? Boylhart at The Huddle Report pegged Shaughnessy, did you? Al seems to have done pretty well drafting this past year (2010), still early, but no way does he compare to BB over the recent past. As far as the Seymour trade goes, I'll let others fight about that. IMO the Pats turned a player they would not have resigned into a 1st round pick 2 years later. The Raiders got a leader/teacher for the defense and the team improved from terrible to decent.

 

[NFLroughdraft]

You mention you had Vollmer ranked top 100 in the 2009 draft. What did you think of of Al Davis' choices in that draft? Was Heyward-Bey a good choice? How about Mitchell? Do you still think much of Al's choices? He did pretty well with with his 3rd and 4th rounders, where did you have Shaughnessy and Murphy ranked? Or any of the later picks? Do you have links to any of this?
You mention Veldheer being a 2010 version of Vollmer(that's a debate for another time), where did you have Veldheer ranked? Or McLane or Houston or Campbell? Was this a good draft for Al? Ford and Mcfadden good picks? Where did you have them? Do you have links?
I tend to agree with you, somewhat, that Al Davis get a bad rap on some of his picks but in the 2009 draft the first 2 picks were bad. The draft gurus said so. The mediots said so. Most fans said so. I am wondering what you said before the draft. The 3rd and 4th round picks were both very good. Most fans, mediots and gurus thought that Shaughnessy was a big reach and Murphy was an okay pick. They missed the ball on both of those. Both were much better than advertised. What were your thoughts? Boylhart at The Huddle Report pegged Shaughnessy, did you? Al seems to have done pretty well drafting this past year (2010), still early, but no way does he compare to BB over the recent past. As far as the Seymour trade goes, I'll let others fight about that. IMO the Pats turned a player they would not have resigned into a 1st round pick 2 years later. The Raiders got a leader/teacher for the defense and the team improved from terrible to decent.

I gave Veldheer a 2nd round grade just like I gave Vollmer. I don't archive our previous top-100 boards on the site (although I guess I should). Like I said, you can check The Huddle Report's top-100 rankings if you want. We finish close to the top of the list every year.

I thought Oakland's 2009 draft was horrible. I didn't understand why many gave DHB a 1st round grade. I didn't like Crabtree either and I thought the Raiders should have taken Maclin.

I knew Mitchell was going to be the 2nd round pick ahead of time. I didn't hate that as much as everyone else. I was actually kind of shocked that Mayock/Kiper didn't know who he was. I had him pegged as a 4th-5th round pick, but he hasn't been very good so far. I HATED the Shaughnessy pick. I had an undrafted grade on him. Wrong there. He's been their best player out of that draft class. I thought Murphy was a solid 4th round pick. I actually thought he may have snuck into the third because of his size/speed combo. Overall, that was a terrible draft though.

Last year's draft is looking really good right now though. Houston, Veldheer, Ford, and Campbell were all great values. McFadden went about where he should have, but he had an awful rookie season.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Anything can happen and you could absolutely be right, but right now you sound like a huge homer. Markell Carter is as good as Moch, Houston, and Acho? Then why did he fall to the end of the 6th round? Shane Vereen is all of a sudden a first round-caliber RB? There is no way I would have drafted him ahead of Leshoure and Thomas. Personally, I like Taiwan Jones better too. Is there a huge difference between Vereen and Kendall Hunter? Because I don't see it.

Maybe your opinion on RBs is better and we shall see, but in the case of Vereen, BB had everyone you selected and Vereen to chose from, and HE selected Vereen. Coulda, Woulda, Shoulda beens are highly subjective. Maybe Ridely would have been available in the 6th, maybe not, but it is all hypothetical and unknown...

As for whether Markel Carter is/will be better than Moch, Houston, or Acho is not the REAL question. The real question is if anyone of them are better than TBC, Cunningham, Ninkovitch or Moore. And unless one is the immediate second coming of Andre Tippett, whether they could be stashed on the PS for a year or two while he/they develop. Odds are a little known, small-school, 6th round, candidate is more likely than not to be able to do that.

Otherwise all BB would be doing, is stocking some other NFL club.

 

[SteveKiner]

I gave Veldheer a 2nd round grade just like I gave Vollmer. I don't archive our previous top-100 boards on the site (although I guess I should). Like I said, you can check The Huddle Report's top-100 rankings if you want. We finish close to the top of the list every year.

I thought Oakland's 2009 draft was horrible. I didn't understand why many gave DHB a 1st round grade. I didn't like Crabtree either and I thought the Raiders should have taken Maclin.

I knew Mitchell was going to be the 2nd round pick ahead of time. I didn't hate that as much as everyone else. I was actually kind of shocked that Mayock/Kiper didn't know who he was. I had him pegged as a 4th-5th round pick, but he hasn't been very good so far. I HATED the Shaughnessy pick. I had an undrafted grade on him. Wrong there. He's been their best player out of that draft class. I thought Murphy was a solid 4th round pick. I actually thought he may have snuck into the third because of his size/speed combo. Overall, that was a terrible draft though.

Last year's draft is looking really good right now though. Houston, Veldheer, Ford, and Campbell were all great values. McFadden went about where he should have, but he had an awful rookie season.

Thank you for answering my questions and also thank you for admitting when your opinions didn't work out(i.e. Shaughnessy).There is too little of that on most boards. As far as the Huddle Report goes, I see you finished tied for 3rd last year. Congrats. I didn't see you in the top 20 for the 5 year average. That may be because you weren't around all 5 years or maybe I can't read the report correctly. If you can explain this, please do.

As far as Vereen or Ridley being reaches or not worth where they were drafted or not being the best choices, time will tell. Just like every other player picked, we will know in 3 years who had good drafts and who had bad drafts. What I do know right now is two things. First, BB, Al Davis, and everybody else in NFL front offices has 1000X more information at their fingertips than any of the so called "draft gurus". So while it is very amusing to do so, it is pretty pointless for people like us to critique the draft performance of people who have much more skill and information than we do.
Second, BB has done a much better job than (almost) everyone else in using the draft. He is the reason the Pats have done what they have done.

 

[Off The Grid]

WOW!!

Ruff, your psychotic, revisionist view of history is very amusing...but that doesn't make it SANE.

 

[randomk1]

I thought Oakland's 2009 draft was horrible. I didn't understand why many gave DHB a 1st round grade. I didn't like Crabtree either and I thought the Raiders should have taken Maclin.

Why didn't you like Crabtree? If he actually had a QB he could be pretty good i think.

Alex Smith is only capable of giving the ball to Vernon Davis for some reason.

 

[NFLroughdraft]

Why didn't you like Crabtree? If he actually had a QB he could be pretty good i think.

Alex Smith is only capable of giving the ball to Vernon Davis for some reason.

Yea you could be right. He hasn't been bad. I actually never thought he would be a "bust" per se, but he was talked about as the best player in that draft class at the time. I thought his numbers were inflated at Texas Tech (although I realize Maclin played in the spread as well). I didn't think Crabtree had the speed required to develop into a #1 receiver and he didn't even attempt to hide the fact that he was a diva. So even though I thought he could be a decent #2, I just didn't think he was worth a top-10 pick.

 

[Shelterdog]

As for whether Markel Carter is/will be better than Moch, Houston, or Acho is not the REAL question. The real question is if anyone of them are better than TBC, Cunningham, Ninkovitch or Moore. And unless one is the immediate second coming of Andre Tippett, whether they could be stashed on the PS for a year or two while he/they develop. Odds are a little known, small-school, 6th round, candidate is more likely than not to be able to do that.

Yup. The real question is always whether the player they picked is the best option to improve the team from 2011-2014.

And if you can't improve the team in 2011 because you're Acho and you won't earn a spot in 2011, it becomes (a) fairly hard to stash you until 2012--you can't have many prospects on your 53 and you can't be that obnoxious about stowing moderately injured guys on IR and (b) it hurts your value because now you're comparing, say, Ridely's four year contributions with Acho's three year contributions.

 

[dryheat44]

Ok....Jared Veldheer? He was pretty much the 2010 version of Vollmer.

No he wasn't. Vollmer played at a D1 school. Is Hillsdale D2, or D3? Quick, what's their nickname? What league do they play in? I think you (Not Al Davis. You.) would have legitimately been crazy to have Veldheer ranked in the top 100, considering that a) You likely had never seen him play, and b) if you had, you would have seen him perform against teams like Lake Erie and Ohio Dominican.


Look, this whole conversation, and every other conversation on this message board, other message boards, and the media, that skewers Belichick for not drafting the right players boils down to one idea:

I know more about football, and specifically the New England Patriots, than Bill Belichick.

I dunno. Seems like an arrogant approach. Is Belichick infallible? Of course not. But the people who defend his draft picks aren't doing so because they feel Belichick is omniscient and can do no wrong. They defend his draft picks because they acknowledge that he knows better than they do what the right moves for his football team are.

The only thing your Top 5 ranking or whatever says is that you're a better guesser than the majority of amateurs out there. I'm willing to bet that when it comes to the Patriots-specific draft, half the posters on this forum have been more successful than 90 % of the media and internet mock drafts. That and $3.75 will get you a gallon of unleaded in some places.

 

[Shelterdog]

No he wasn't. Vollmer played at a D1 school. Is Hillsdale D2, or D3? Quick, what's their nickname? What league do they play in? I think you (Not Al Davis. You.) would have legitimately been crazy to have Veldheer ranked in the top 100, considering that a) You likely had never seen him play, and b) if you had, you would have seen him perform against teams like Lake Erie and Ohio Dominican.

But they have similar heights, weights, and 40 times so _must_ be the same player.

 

[NFLroughdraft]

No he wasn't. Vollmer played at a D1 school. Is Hillsdale D2, or D3? Quick, what's their nickname? What league do they play in? I think you (Not Al Davis. You.) would have legitimately been crazy to have Veldheer ranked in the top 100, considering that a) You likely had never seen him play, and b) if you had, you would have seen him perform against teams like Lake Erie and Ohio Dominican.


Look, this whole conversation, and every other conversation on this message board, other message boards, and the media, that skewers Belichick for not drafting the right players boils down to one idea:

I know more about football, and specifically the New England Patriots, than Bill Belichick.

I dunno. Seems like an arrogant approach. Is Belichick infallible? Of course not. But the people who defend his draft picks aren't doing so because they feel Belichick is omniscient and can do no wrong. They defend his draft picks because they acknowledge that he knows better than they do what the right moves for his football team are.

The only thing your Top 5 ranking or whatever says is that you're a better guesser than the majority of amateurs out there. I'm willing to bet that when it comes to the Patriots-specific draft, half the posters on this forum have been more successful than 90 % of the media and internet mock drafts. That and $3.75 will get you a gallon of unleaded in some places.

I would have been crazy to have Veldheer in my top-100? I don't recall seeing ANY top-100 ranking last year that didn't include Veldheer. He and Vollmer have similar height/weight/speed/athleticism. The key factor that made them comparable was that they were both very raw with tremendously high ceilings. Veldheer didn't allow a sack throughout his entire career, but level of competition was a concern. Vollmer didn't have much experience playing football. He moved here from (Germany I think?). That's why they were similar prospects.

And I never said I know more about football than BB. That's just crazy. He's won 3 Super Bowls. All I said was he sometimes gets praised for drafting players that other teams would get killed for.

 

[Shelterdog]

I would have been crazy to have Veldheer in my top-100? I don't recall seeing ANY top-100 ranking last year that didn't include Veldheer. He and Vollmer have similar height/weight/speed/athleticism. The key factor that made them comparable was that they were both very raw with tremendously high ceilings. Veldheer didn't allow a sack throughout his entire career, but level of competition was a concern. Vollmer didn't have much experience playing football. He moved here from (Germany I think?). That's why they were similar prospects.

And I never said I know more about football than BB. That's just crazy. He's won 3 Super Bowls. All I said was he sometimes gets praised for drafting players that other teams would get killed for.

The point-which I'm not sure I agree with-is that you personally haven't done the work necessary to assess Veldheer. Have you seen him live? Seen him on all-22 tapes? Talked to his coaches? Read his Blesto/National scouting reports?

Also, it's implicit in your statements that the Vereen/Ridley moves were blatantly obvious overdrafts that you know more about value on the Patriots' draft board than BB.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Vollmer didn't have much experience playing football. He moved here from (Germany I think?). That's why they were similar prospects.

Yes, Seabaß is from Germany—but his team won two German national championships.

 

[dryheat44]

The point-which I'm not sure I agree with-is that you personally haven't done the work necessary to assess Veldheer. Have you seen him live? Seen him on all-22 tapes? Talked to his coaches? Read his Blesto/National scouting reports?

Also, it's implicit in your statements that the Vereen/Ridley moves were blatantly obvious overdrafts that you know more about value on the Patriots' draft board than BB.

Exactly. Al Davis might have a friend in Indiana who tipped him off about the kid, and Al sent a scout to watch every game, talk to him and his coaches, his high school coaches, watch practices, etc. So Al Davis may have been able to say yes, this kid indeed carries a second round grade. A media member, even Mayock, whom I think is the best, is very unlikely to have that information at his disposal, so it's just illogical to rate an o-lineman who played well at Hillsdale over an o-lineman who played at a similar level at Alabama or Oklahoma. I mean, the year before Mayock had that kid out of Bentley (?) rated his #5 guard in the draft. Now maybe Mayock has a nephew who plays on Bentley and watched every game, but is it really logical to rate a player who's playing against 175-lb future lawyers and stockbrokers the 5th best guard in the country?

Everybody wants to be in on the ground floor of the next biggest thing, and mock drafting is the biggest copycat industry going.

And yes, saying that Belichick should have picked player X over player Y is indeed an implication that the speaker thinks he knows more than Belichick. Simply stated "I'm right, and Belichick's wrong."

 

[MVPatsfan13]

This might be the funniest forum page Ive ever seen.

This guy comes to this site and takes the time to start a name, to try to generate some sales/webhits/whatever

and he just sold us on NOT buying his info.

HILARIOUS

 

[NFLroughdraft]

This might be the funniest forum page Ive ever seen.

This guy comes to this site and takes the time to start a name, to try to generate some sales/webhits/whatever

and he just sold us on NOT buying his info.

HILARIOUS

Hahaha.....Nope. You want to know why I came here? I found this:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/13/228783-heres-mock-you-may-like.html

So if you don't like it, don't read it. I came here to have some spirited draft debate with some smart Pats fans. And that's exactly how most of this has gone. Do you think if I wanted to "sell" something I would have come on here and ripped two of New England's picks?

 

[NFLroughdraft]

Exactly. Al Davis might have a friend in Indiana who tipped him off about the kid, and Al sent a scout to watch every game, talk to him and his coaches, his high school coaches, watch practices, etc. So Al Davis may have been able to say yes, this kid indeed carries a second round grade. A media member, even Mayock, whom I think is the best, is very unlikely to have that information at his disposal, so it's just illogical to rate an o-lineman who played well at Hillsdale over an o-lineman who played at a similar level at Alabama or Oklahoma. I mean, the year before Mayock had that kid out of Bentley (?) rated his #5 guard in the draft. Now maybe Mayock has a nephew who plays on Bentley and watched every game, but is it really logical to rate a player who's playing against 175-lb future lawyers and stockbrokers the 5th best guard in the country?

Everybody wants to be in on the ground floor of the next biggest thing, and mock drafting is the biggest copycat industry going.

And yes, saying that Belichick should have picked player X over player Y is indeed an implication that the speaker thinks he knows more than Belichick. Simply stated "I'm right, and Belichick's wrong."

Player performance at the college level is a big factor, but not the only factor. Look at Nate Solder. BB didn't draft him in the first round because of what he's already done...that's for sure. He sees a big athletic kid that he thinks he can coach into a top-notch OT. In fact, he was probably THIS year's Vollmer.

There is no way any organization had scouts at all of Hillsdales games. It just isn't the way it works. All the talking to high school coaches, talking to college coaches, etc happens AFTER the players' college career is already over. Scouts aren't going to go and interview players while they're still playing because that's a HUGE NCAA rules violation and those players would end up getting suspended.

Why would you think Mike Mayock couldn't grade a small school guy accurately? He works for the NFL! He can watch game film on anyone he wants! The one area where I'll admit that everyone gets left behind is personal interviews and medical checks. I talk to a few players each year, but I certainly don't get to interview 600 prospects.

And nooooooooooooooooooooooo, I'm not saying I know more about football than BB. If you want it simply stated, I'm telling you that I don't hahaha. So I don't know why it's even up for debate. I don't like that he took the combo of Vereen/Ridley so highly. I would have been fine with taking one of them, but I gave a list of about 8 guys I would have taken over Ridley since they already drafted Vereen. BB has won 3 Super Bowls. He is an excellent defensive coach and his draft philosophy of trading down to acquire future picks is something that I think is brilliant. But I did not like those 2 picks.