Standing Up To The Patriots Works

[mgteich]

We are told how tough Kraft, Pioli and Belichick have been with players. After all, they are ruthless in cutting players and trading like Law, Milloy, McGinist and Vrabel. They are ruthless in not overpaying for UFA's like Woody, Banta-Cain and Givens.

HOWEVER, there is the rest of the story. The following players stood up to the patriots and either got extended contract or the oportunity to make more money elsewhere than the team was originally offering or perhaps ever offering. It is sometimes hard to tell. But suffice it to say, the players could pay for the groceries.
SEYMOUR
WARREN
KOPPEN
BRANCH
SAMUEL (after being forced to accept $8M, he sat out to exclude anopther year at $9M).

Even Law and Milloy received fine contracts elsewhere when they were pushed out. Obviously many free agents did very well contract-wise elsewhere.

In the end, it is still the market (albeit a very constrained market) that determines value.
============================================================

The bottom line is that the NFL, and Wilfork (as Seymour before him), is worth much more than he is being paid. Wilfork is doing what other patriots have before him. It seems unreasonable that he won't succeed as others have succeeded.

 

[maverick4]

Those who "stand up" do get paid, it's true, whether it be by the Pats or by someone else.

Regardless, the Pats machine keeps on rolling, with or without those players.

 

[jmt57]

I know opposing fans and some of the media like to portray the Patriots as being "ruthless" and "frugal" but I wonder how they compare to other teams. It's as if the Pats are the only team to cut a veteran player or let a starter walk in free agency the way some people talk. Because of the salary cap it would be irresponsible to give in to every player's contract demands, or to match every offer a member of their roster received from another team.

The reality is that when a team is successful, other teams are probably going to overpay for some of that successful team's players in an attempt to quickly improve themselves. Difficult as it may be the front office of an NFL team cannot afford to become emotionally tied to a player the way fans do if they seriously want to continue to field a competitive team.

While there may be a long list of players that left the Pats and were able to make more money elsewhere, how many of those should the Pats have gone ahead and paid what they were asking? I would say that looking back after the fact, the Pats have an extremely high percentage of getting those decisions right.

 

[ausbacker]

Get paid or play in an environment where success is measured by winning championships. I know what I would prefer.

 

[mgteich]

Yes, and players can choose to give discounts to teams like the patriots, steelers, giants and colts. However, it seems that fans are most willing to give discounts. How many of us would give up 1/3 of our salary if only our company had a good year? Somehow, I think the best performers would expect more rahter than less.

Some players are happy to play for a team taht has a chance at the championship. Our former starting corners say hi from Philly.

Some players understand that they will play very few years and this is a business. How many players have come and gone from the patriots since our last Super Bowl?

Get paid or play in an environment where success is measured by winning championships. I know what I would prefer.

 

[DaBruinz]

We are told how tough Kraft, Pioli and Belichick have been with players. After all, they are ruthless in cutting players and trading like Law, Milloy, McGinist and Vrabel. They are ruthless in not overpaying for UFA's like Woody, Banta-Cain and Givens.

HOWEVER, there is the rest of the story. The following players stood up to the patriots and either got extended contract or the oportunity to make more money elsewhere than the team was originally offering or perhaps ever offering. It is sometimes hard to tell. But suffice it to say, the players could pay for the groceries.
SEYMOUR
WARREN
KOPPEN
BRANCH
SAMUEL (after being forced to accept $8M, he sat out to exclude anopther year at $9M).

Even Law and Milloy received fine contracts elsewhere when they were pushed out. Obviously many free agents did very well contract-wise elsewhere.

In the end, it is still the market (albeit a very constrained market) that determines value.
============================================================

The bottom line is that the NFL, and Wilfork (as Seymour before him), is worth much more than he is being paid. Wilfork is doing what other patriots have before him. It seems unreasonable that he won't succeed as others have succeeded.

When did Warren and Koppen "stand up to the Patriots?"

I have to disagree with your premise because more than a few have worked with the Patriots and been very well paid. Warren and Koppen being 2 of them. Matt Light, Tom Brady, Randy Moss, Corey Dillon, Mike Vrabel, Ted Johnson, Rodney Harrison. They all worked with the Patriots and got their extentions without issue.

 

[DaBruinz]

Yes, and players can choose to give discounts to teams like the patriots, steelers, giants and colts. However, it seems that fans are most willing to give discounts. How many of us would give up 1/3 of our salary if only our company had a good year? Somehow, I think the best performers would expect more rahter than less.

Some players are happy to play for a team taht has a chance at the championship. Our former starting corners say hi from Philly.

Some players understand that they will play very few years and this is a business. How many players have come and gone from the patriots since our last Super Bowl?

I always laugh when people talk about the "Home town discount" and then act like its some amazingly outrageous number like 1/3 of the paycheck or something. We're talking MAYBE 10% for a home town discount. And that is MAX.

And, if my company had a bonus program where I'd end up getting more than that 10% if the company succeeded, then I'd gladly give up that salary.


Also - regarding Seymour. Its well know that Seymour was allowed to miss TC until the Pats could put his new contract into place. They just had to wait because of the fact that they had modified Seymour's contract the year before. So its debatable as to whether Seymour really stood up to the Patriots or not.

 

[Deus Irae]

We are told how tough Kraft, Pioli and Belichick have been with players. After all, they are ruthless in cutting players and trading like Law, Milloy, McGinist and Vrabel. They are ruthless in not overpaying for UFA's like Woody, Banta-Cain and Givens.

HOWEVER, there is the rest of the story. The following players stood up to the patriots and either got extended contract or the oportunity to make more money elsewhere than the team was originally offering or perhaps ever offering. It is sometimes hard to tell. But suffice it to say, the players could pay for the groceries.
SEYMOUR
WARREN
KOPPEN
BRANCH
SAMUEL (after being forced to accept $8M, he sat out to exclude anopther year at $9M).

Even Law and Milloy received fine contracts elsewhere when they were pushed out. Obviously many free agents did very well contract-wise elsewhere.

In the end, it is still the market (albeit a very constrained market) that determines value.
============================================================

The bottom line is that the NFL, and Wilfork (as Seymour before him), is worth much more than he is being paid. Wilfork is doing what other patriots have before him. It seems unreasonable that he won't succeed as others have succeeded.

The moment you tried putting Law and Milloy in here, you killed your own argument. Neither one got anything approaching what they'd had before and, certainly, neither one did better financially post-Patriots than they did while still with the team.

As for Warren and Koppen, I have no idea what you're talking about, since neither player "stood up to the Patriots" in any meaningful way that's normally meant by such a phrasing.

 

[ausbacker]

Yes, and players can choose to give discounts to teams like the patriots, steelers, giants and colts. However, it seems that fans are most willing to give discounts. How many of us would give up 1/3 of our salary if only our company had a good year? Somehow, I think the best performers would expect more rahter than less.

Some players are happy to play for a team taht has a chance at the championship. Our former starting corners say hi from Philly.

Some players understand that they will play very few years and this is a business. How many players have come and gone from the patriots since our last Super Bowl?

I really don't care. My personal opinion is such that if I had the opportunity to win every time every year, I would want to be in that environment. The finances will take care of themselves, if you are smart enough.

 

[mgteich]

I think that you mean without public issue that you remember. The players you mention all had agents who presumably negotiated well. Sitting out of a practices or games was always a threat, spoken or not.

You primary point is well taken. Many polayers have gotten what they needed without having to have sit out of practices or games. Sitting out or public threatening was necessary for Seymour, Branch and Samuel. Law just moved on. In the end, IMHO, Law was the only loser of the bunch, and that because of a personalit conflict between him and Belichick. Belichick just couldn't find the way, as Parcells did with Taylor.

But this is all water over the bridge. After the cutting of Milloy, it should have clear to all that the patriots are operated as a business, with no room for loyalty or emotion.
=====================

But my bottom line is that when things don't go well, it has helped to sit out, or threaten to do so. It worked for Seymour, Branch and Samuel. Do you disagree?

When did Warren and Koppen "stand up to the Patriots?"

I have to disagree with your premise because more than a few have worked with the Patriots and been very well paid. Warren and Koppen being 2 of them. Matt Light, Tom Brady, Randy Moss, Corey Dillon, Mike Vrabel, Ted Johnson, Rodney Harrison. They all worked with the Patriots and got their extentions without issue.

 

[Synovia]

I know opposing fans and some of the media like to portray the Patriots as being "ruthless" and "frugal" but I wonder how they compare to other teams.

Theres a salary cap and a salary floor, and they're not that far apart. They're not allowed to be any more frugal than anyone else, and they're pretty close to the cap almost every year.


They're "Frugal" in the sense that they refuse to give "elite money" to players who are just "good", like Deion Branch.

They have no problem giving elite money to elite players, like Moss, Seymour, and Brady.

 

[livinginthe past]

From the outside it appears that finding a dominant NT capable of playing a large number of snaps all year is one of the lynch pins of the 3-4.

Getting to the QB is more important than ever - having a Dt/NT who can really push the pocket would seem to be a huge positive.

Then again, its not like the Patriots don't know all this and more.

I hope they get him signed to an extension but if they don't I hope he ends up in the NFC preferably at a non-contender like the Redskins.

 

[mgteich]

Do you REALLY believe that Wilfork can play with no increase (or even for what the patriots offer next eyar) and make up more than the difference in incentive bonuses? I have always worked at companies with lower salaries with bonuses for success.

People have posted that Wilfork should be paid more that $6M a year by the patriots. I think that he can earn 50% more elsewhere or $9M a year.

Do you think that folks here would be happy with offering Wilfork within 10% of the market and making it up with bonuses that he presumablty wouldn't be able to earn elsewhere?

I always laugh when people talk about the "Home town discount" and then act like its some amazingly outrageous number like 1/3 of the paycheck or something. We're talking MAYBE 10% for a home town discount. And that is MAX.

And, if my company had a bonus program where I'd end up getting more than that 10% if the company succeeded, then I'd gladly give up that salary.


Also - regarding Seymour. Its well know that Seymour was allowed to miss TC until the Pats could put his new contract into place. They just had to wait because of the fact that they had modified Seymour's contract the year before. So its debatable as to whether Seymour really stood up to the Patriots or not.

 

[DaBruinz]

Do you REALLY believe that Wilfork can play with no increase (or even for what the patriots offer next eyar) and make up more than the difference in incentive bonuses? I have always worked at companies with lower salaries with bonuses for success.

People have posted that Wilfork should be paid more that $6M a year by the patriots. I think that he can earn 50% more elsewhere or $9M a year.

Do you think that folks here would be happy with offering Wilfork within 10% of the market and making it up with bonuses that he presumablty wouldn't be able to earn elsewhere?

What you THINK and what is REALITY are different things. I suggest you go look at what the market is because its NOT $9M a year for a NT. And what people mentioned was that the FRANCHISE number for a NT/DT was 6 million. Do I believe that Wilfork should be paid more than that? Do I believe he should be paid Haynesworth money? No. Because even Haynesworth money isn't Haynesworth money.

What folks here are happy with doesn't matter. Its what Wilfork is happy with that matters. And, I don't believe he's motivated by money. Yes, the money is nice, though he's not like Bruschi either. I think that Wilfork will be happy with a contract similar to Warren's in all honesty..

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I think that you mean without public issue that you remember. The players you mention all had agents who presumably negotiated well. Sitting out of a practices or games was always a threat, spoken or not.

You primary point is well taken. Many polayers have gotten what they needed without having to have sit out of practices or games. Sitting out or public threatening was necessary for Seymour, Branch and Samuel. Law just moved on. In the end, IMHO, Law was the only loser of the bunch, and that because of a personalit conflict between him and Belichick. Belichick just couldn't find the way, as Parcells did with Taylor.

But this is all water over the bridge. After the cutting of Milloy, it should have clear to all that the patriots are operated as a business, with no room for loyalty or emotion.
=====================

But my bottom line is that when things don't go well, it has helped to sit out, or threaten to do so. It worked for Seymour, Branch and Samuel. Do you disagree?

What a continuing crock... For every player who has held out there are half a dozen who have stayed the course and worked with the team. A handful of greedy bad apples has yet to spoil this pot. We may not win every Superbowl, but we are consistently in the hunt. Milloy didn't last too long in his deal Buffalo learned to regret. And Atlanta didn't want him in their newly successful locker room anymore either. Law has bounced around between Herms gigs chasing the money he thought he deserved to no avail. Branch is in a make or break buyers remorse season where the Seahawks are concerned. The only one who made out was the freakin place kicker, and he's on his last legs in Indy where his only claim to fame there is he was worth it for one year, the same one we were willing to pay him for and no more. Turns out he wouldn't have made a difference here that year anyway.

I really don't know what your problem is, but you appear to have some chronic issues with this organization. I guess you want one of the old regimes back so we could return to the good old days when we sat on aluminum benches and rooted for the loveable mismanaged NE Patsies who drafted or overpaid any number of underperforming binkys and won nothing...

 

[mgteich]

You guys can continue to call Wilfork a greedy bad apple. That is your priviledge. And you can continue to believe that most that Wilfork will ever get is $6M a year, and that he certainily won't get even that for 2009.

Let's just agree to disagree and wait and see.

Perhaps the patriots won't agree to $6M or more a year.

Then, when Wilfork is playing elsewhere, your analysis will be that we offered him more and that he isn't any good anyway and that he was a fool to accept an offer from a team that isn't as great as the patriots.

 

[spacecrime]

What did Samuel win?

The pats franchised him. He held out. He played under the franchise tag.

You act like he got $8 mil because he held out. Wrong. He was franchised first and then held out.

All he got was an agreement not to franshise him again in return for his coming to training camp. That is hardly beating down the Pats. Many teams will agree to that after franchising a player. It isn't giving up much on the teams' part because it invovles a 20% raise over and above this year's franchise number.

Also, I missed Warren's and Kopen's holdout. When was that?

But if your main point is that high quality players are more likely get a better deal than JAGs, all I can say is, "Du-uh!"

We are told how tough Kraft, Pioli and Belichick have been with players. After all, they are ruthless in cutting players and trading like Law, Milloy, McGinist and Vrabel. They are ruthless in not overpaying for UFA's like Woody, Banta-Cain and Givens.

HOWEVER, there is the rest of the story. The following players stood up to the patriots and either got extended contract or the oportunity to make more money elsewhere than the team was originally offering or perhaps ever offering. It is sometimes hard to tell. But suffice it to say, the players could pay for the groceries.
SEYMOUR
WARREN
KOPPEN
BRANCH
SAMUEL (after being forced to accept $8M, he sat out to exclude anopther year at $9M).

Even Law and Milloy received fine contracts elsewhere when they were pushed out. Obviously many free agents did very well contract-wise elsewhere.

In the end, it is still the market (albeit a very constrained market) that determines value.
============================================================

The bottom line is that the NFL, and Wilfork (as Seymour before him), is worth much more than he is being paid. Wilfork is doing what other patriots have before him. It seems unreasonable that he won't succeed as others have succeeded.

 

[Deus Irae]

You guys can continue to call Wilfork a greedy bad apple. That is your priviledge. And you can continue to believe that most that Wilfork will ever get is $6M a year, and that he certainily won't get even that for 2009.

Let's just agree to disagree and wait and see.

Perhaps the patriots won't agree to $6M or more a year.

Then, when Wilfork is playing elsewhere, your analysis will be that we offered him more and that he isn't any good anyway and that he was a fool to accept an offer from a team that isn't as great as the patriots.

You can continue to misrepresent what other people are saying, too.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

You guys can continue to call Wilfork a greedy bad apple. That is your priviledge. And you can continue to believe that most that Wilfork will ever get is $6M a year, and that he certainily won't get even that for 2009.

Let's just agree to disagree and wait and see.

Perhaps the patriots won't agree to $6M or more a year.

Then, when Wilfork is playing elsewhere, your analysis will be that we offered him more and that he isn't any good anyway and that he was a fool to accept an offer from a team that isn't as great as the patriots.

How well has it worked out for your malcontents honestly, mg... And how much has losing them hurt us? We won with and without Ty Law and Lawyer Milloy on the field. The teams who promised to pay them what they wanted and then didn't...didn't. Might Branch have made a difference in 2006? Maybe. Was he worth the $9M we're paying for Randy? Don't think so, and neither do the Seahawks anymore. He's averaged 4 TD a season for them and missed a full seasons worth of games in 3. Asante? Well, he was still here making $7.6M in 2007 and it didn't do us any damn good. Gave up a TD and missed a SB clinching pick. Maybe if we'd flipped him for a draft pick in a 2007 tag and trade the new guy we'll never have after we let him walk would have made a play when it mattered...

What ever happened to Damien Woody...oh, nevermind, I remember. Ditto.

The only player who left here to chase the money who will see it along with another ring is Adam. And was he worth what he got? Maybe in Indy since he kicked them into a Superbowl. But not here. Kicker hasn't been an issue. Issue has been a defense that couldn't get sufficient pass rush with Wilfork and Seymour on the line or stop opposing offenses from scoring with Asante Samuel and Ellis Hobbs in the backfield.

And as for your contention that it was something lacking in BB that led to Ty leaving, give me a break. That was pure, unadulterated, ego driven feed my family player greed. Did he plan to show us all that it was talent and not system that matters? Yup, and how'd that work out for him? Did Bill keep the door open inspite of what the player publicly spewed including even after he limped out the door??? Yup. The issues in that relationship were Ty's.

 

[patchick]

I think that you mean without public issue that you remember. The players you mention all had agents who presumably negotiated well. Sitting out of a practices or games was always a threat, spoken or not.

Watch out, your argument's turning circular. It sounds like you're saying that we should assume that any player who successfully negotiated a new deal must have "stood up" to the team...and therefore we conclude that standing up to the team works!