Spikes - maybe a little writing on the wall

[BradyFTW!]

Spikes actually has more speed than his 40 time would equate to.

Not by much, and that wasn't what I claimed, in any case. I stated that he was extremely slow, which he is.

To say that he was drafted to fill a scheme that the Pats no longer run would be a fallacy on your part. The Pats still do run the 3-4 on occasion. They also run the 4-3 Under, which is similar.

Reading comprehension fail. Let me simplify this for you:

"My guess would be that, like Cunningham, Spikes was drafted to play in a base defensive scheme that the Patriots no longer run"

"was drafted to play in a base defensive scheme"

"base defensive scheme"

"base"

Key word in that statement. As a 3-4 ILB, there's a lot of value in the Ted Johnson role of stacking and shedding blockers, and in the process freeing up Mayo to be a Bruschi-style playmaker. His ability to see plays developing and be in the right place at the right time within a fairly small window, in that role, is a lot more important than straight-line speed. As a MLB with four down linemen in front of him, his strengths are far less required, and his limitations in space become a major issue. How many times this season did you see a receiver crossing the field in front of him, and then catching the ball cleanly and turning upfield when he was simply unable to keep up?

As far as another team trading for him, what would they give up? I don't see why any rival GM would give more than a 6th rounder for a guy like him with one year left on his contract. His being on the field creates almost as many problems as it solves.

He would have had a lot more value in 1993, but in 2013 he's too much of a liability in coverage to be anything more than a situational contributor. Pretty much the same thing I've been saying about Chung for the last few years, although to Spikes' credit he does have the advantage of being a significantly better football player than Chung- at least he's extremely good at the one dimension that his game does have.

 

[Don Kipines]

The moment there's the slightest doubt about a player's attitude around here, everybody starts talking about how he sucks and should be traded.

Spikes is one of our best defensive players. He's one of the few defensive guys who regularly makes game-changing plays. He single-handedly turned the first Buffalo game around last year. We should have beaten Arizona thanks to him. He's singularly impacted games like that numerous times in his career (the Dallas game two years ago comes to mind). He adds attitude and intimidation.

It does seem lined up for him to leave, but I don't think anyone should be celebrating that.

 

[supafly]

It does seem lined up for him to leave, but I don't think anyone should be celebrating that.

Absolutely agreed. Very well put.

 

[patriotsdynasty12189]

I think Brandon Spikes stays he is the only enforcer on this defense.

 

[BelichickFan]

It does seem lined up for him to leave, but I don't think anyone should be celebrating that.

I'm not celebrating it but we've drafted LB high the last two years to go with Mayo and only start 3 LB. Like I said about the writing . . .

 

[supafly]

I think Brandon Spikes stays he is the only enforcer on this defense.

The 'only' enforcer on this defense? Really?

What does Spikes do well to warrant a bigger paid/longer term 2nd deal besides hit hard?

I hope he stays too, but I doubt it will happen.

 

[BradyFTW!]

The moment there's the slightest doubt about a player's attitude around here, everybody starts talking about how he sucks and should be traded.

Spikes is one of our best defensive players. He's one of the few defensive guys who regularly makes game-changing plays. He single-handedly turned the first Buffalo game around last year. We should have beaten Arizona thanks to him. He's singularly impacted games like that numerous times in his career (the Dallas game two years ago comes to mind). He adds attitude and intimidation.

It does seem lined up for him to leave, but I don't think anyone should be celebrating that.

He's also been responsible for some of the biggest plays that have gone the other way. Key first downs because he couldn't keep up with his man, etc. That's what Spikes is. He's a one-dimensions player who truly excels at his dimension, and that means that, when he's in his element, great things happen, and when he's out of his element, bad things happen.

I don't hate the guy. I'd certainly rather have him than a MLB who doesn't particularly excel at anything. But the holes in his game are what they are--a lot of us have been acutely aware of them for years--and at this stage in his career they aren't going to change. If he leaves, I won't celebrate. I'll just be hopeful that Hightower proves able to do most of the things that he can do, plus a whole lot of things that he can't do.

If the Pats can keep Spikes with a contract that's commensurate to the limited role that he's ideal for, then that'll be fantastic news. In the far more likely event that he demands to paid like an every-down linebacker, I'd rather the Pats invest their money in better, more versatile players. It's the same thing that I said about Chung last offseason and was routinely attacked for, but I was right then and I'm confident that I'm also right this time.

 

[PittPatriot]

...Collins is an athletic freak of nature. Why wouldn't you assume that he will contibute? Outside of injury (which is always the case with anyone) he will definitely be a contributor.

Wasn't Shawn Crable an athletic freak, also?
Wasn't Adalias Thomas the "swiss army knife" do-it-all type who was supposed to take this genius-designed defense to the next level?
I am excited to see Collins…but I don't feel comfortable putting my eggs in that basket quite yet.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Wasn't Shawn Crable an athletic freak, also?
Wasn't Adalias Thomas the "swiss army knife" do-it-all type who was supposed to take this genius-designed defense to the next level?
I am excited to see Collins…but I don't feel comfortable putting my eggs in that basket quite yet.

Crable: depends on who you ask, but it's largely irrelevant, since injuries were what did him in. The person who you replied to already made the allowance for injuries.
As far as Thomas, what's your point? He was a productive player for us on the field. If Collins contributes half as much this year as he did in 2007, we'll be in good shape. Unfortunately, he was also a locker room cancer with a big contract.

 

[letekro]

Things could change, but Spikes has been the only guy that makes plays on D the last couple of years, so why would they get rid of him? Just take him off the field in obvious passing situations and problem solved. you're not going to have to break the bank for a 2-down LB.

 

[PittPatriot]

Crable: depends on who you ask, but it's largely irrelevant, since injuries were what did him in. The person who you replied to already made the allowance for injuries.
As far as Thomas, what's your point? He was a productive player for us on the field. If Collins contributes half as much this year as he did in 2007, we'll be in good shape. Unfortunately, he was also a locker room cancer with a big contract.

I was just speaking to my personal need to curb expectations when it comes to new additions to the team. I will take the evil I know in Spikes over an unproven commodity.
Plus, I cringe at the thought of having him on an opposing D with Amandola or Edelwoman (I kid, I love Edelman) working the inside.

 

[BelichickFan]

Wasn't Shawn Crable an athletic freak, also?

No he wasn't.

Collins beat Crable in just about every run (10 yd the exception). Collins was better at 40, 20, Shutte, 3 Cone. The 10 was a slight edge to Crable. But Crable has no explosion (VJ, BJ) whereas Collins was incredible. Collins' VJ was 13.5 inches more than Crables. His BJ was more than 2 feet more. Crable has a good bench, but he wasn't an athletic freak at all.

 

[BelichickFan]

I was just speaking to my personal need to curb expectations when it comes to new additions to the team.

Maybe this will make you feel beter :

CRABLE
Height: 6047
Weight: 245
40 Yrd Dash: 4.61
20 Yrd Dash: 2.70
10 Yrd Dash: 1.56
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 29
Vertical Jump: 28
Broad Jump: 09'03"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.55
3-Cone Drill: 7.29

COLLINS
Height: 6034
Weight: 250
40 Yrd Dash: 4.59
20 Yrd Dash: 2.61
10 Yrd Dash: 1.58
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 19
Vertical Jump: 41 1/2
Broad Jump: 11'07"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.32
3-Cone Drill: 7.10

 

[Marqui]

BelichickFan, Collins played DE all last year. How do you know the Patriots plan to use Collins as an off the line LB long term?

 

[BradyFTW!]

I was just speaking to my personal need to curb expectations when it comes to new additions to the team. I will take the evil I know in Spikes over an unproven commodity.
Plus, I cringe at the thought of having him on an opposing D with Amandola or Edelwoman (I kid, I love Edelman) working the inside.

Right on, and understood (sorry if I came off as kind of a **** in my reply). FWIW, if Collins does push Spikes out, it will be only indirectly. If Spikes is being replaced, he's being replaced by Hightower, and we know that Hightower's the real deal. The Patriots didn't really have a comparable to Collins last year. They didn't have a coverage LB, and that really hurt them. If anything, he's assuming a role that was pretty much absent from the team in 2012.

 

[BradyFTW!]

BelichickFan, Collins played DE all last year. How do you know the Patriots plan to use Collins as an off the line LB long term?

I don't think anyone can really know what the plan for him is long-term, at this point. If he wants to be an every-down player, though, then he's going to have to either be a linebacker or put on a good deal of weight to play DE. He's currently lighter than Mark Anderson. In an ideal world, I think he puts on 10-20 pounds and becomes a stronger, faster, quicker (basically better in every way) version of Ninkovich. This includes the ability to play DE or OLB as the situation dictates, and using that versatility to mind-**** opposing QBs.

 

[nowayback]

For what its worth..spikes 7 PD's last year Mayo 3..i thought he improved last yr, esp as the year went on. P willis had 9 pds..and i believe Spikes missed a few games

 

[nekromantique]

BelichickFan, Collins played DE all last year. How do you know the Patriots plan to use Collins as an off the line LB long term?

no telling where he plays long-term, but belichick already said theyre going to start him out at LB

 

[Marqui]

I don't think anyone can really know what the plan for him is long-term, at this point. If he wants to be an every-down player, though, then he's going to have to either be a linebacker or put on a good deal of weight to play DE. He's currently lighter than Mark Anderson. In an ideal world, I think he puts on 10-20 pounds and becomes a stronger, faster, quicker (basically better in every way) version of Ninkovich. This includes the ability to play DE or OLB as the situation dictates, and using that versatility to mind-**** opposing QBs.

I agree with the way better version of Ninkovich projection. But if that's the case, what does that have to do with Spikes or Hightower? If anything it's "writing on the wall" for Ninkovich.

no telling where he plays long-term, but belichick already said theyre going to start him out at LB

And they started Hightower out at MLB and he didn't end up playing a second there during the season. Where Collins starts out at early OTAs is irrelevant really.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I agree with the way better version of Ninkovich projection. But if that's the case, what does that have to do with Spikes or Hightower? If anything it's "writing on the wall" for Ninkovich.

And they started Hightower out at MLB and he didn't end up playing a second there during the season. Where Collins starts out at early OTAs is irrelevant really.

Could be both, but I think that, if Collins were to hypothetically become super-Ninkovich, you'd want him, Hightower, and Mayo at linebacker, with Jones and another guy (maybe still Ninkovich, ideally another upgrade) at DE. That would give you 3 players (Hightower, Collins, Ninkovich/DE#2) with positional flexibility to play at two levels.

In any case, if the Pats go into this offseason debating between re-signing Spikes and Ninkovich, and acknowledging that Ninkovich will most likely be a good bit cheaper, I bet they'd rather have Ninkovich at DE with Collins at OLB and Hightower at MLB than Collins at DE with Hightower at OLB and Spikes at MLB.

As for where Hightower started, I think it's hard to evaluate where the Pats wanted for him to go, because realistically they only had three half-decent OLBs on the roster: Mayo, Hightower, and Ninkovich. Between Ninkovich playing at DE and Spikes not being able to contribute anywhere except MLB, the configuration that they ended up with was the best utilization of their assets on the whole, even if it wasn't necessarily in individual cases like Hightower's.

In other words, even if Hightower is better off as a MLB, you're better with him at OLB and Spikes at MLB than you are with him at MLB and Spikes or any of the backups at OLB. This is the team that moved Wilfork to DE, Vrabel to ILB, and McCourty to S then back to CB then back to S again when injury/depth issues forced the change. There's certainly plenty of precedent for playing guys out of position when the need is there.