Special Teams ONLY

[mgteich]

Every year poster say that we will not have any SPECIAL TEAMS ONLY PLAYERS. Some unhappily suggested the ONE exception for Slater.
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Which players do you hope never to see out on the field, expect for special teams play, and perhaps for a few garbage time plays at the end of a game.

I have at FOUR on my list: Slater, White, Ebner and Jones (EDITED).
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[mayoclinic]

Not convinced that Ebner is a STer only. I think he has more upside than Chung as a safety.

 

[mgteich]

Not convinced that Ebner is a STer only. I think he has more upside than Chung as a safety.

I suggest that we check defensive reps at various times in the year.

In any case, I suspect that one of Wilson and Chung should also be on the list. But only Belichick and the other coaches knows which it is.

BOTTOM LINE
The list should probably include Chung or Wilson.

 

[mayoclinic]

I suggest that we check defensive reps at various times in the year.

I'm sure Chung will get more defensive reps than Ebner. Not saying that Ebner is cut out to be a safety, but I shudder at the thought of Chung on the field.

 

[mgteich]

I'm sure Chung will get more defensive reps than Ebner. Not saying that Ebner is cut out to be a safety, but I shudder at the thought of Chung on the field.

fair enough

I'm fine with Chung being a STO player. Many folks think that Wilson is clearly our #3 safety.
I could also see Chung playing some on running downs.

However, Ebner is not a future safety, simply because Chung sux.

 

[Ring 6]

fair enough

I'm fine with Chung being a STO player. Many folks think that Wilson is clearly our #3 safety.

Who do many folks think our 2nd safety is?
Frankly, I think its a wild guess ranking them 2-5, or even 2-8 if you include corners who may see snaps there.
I would agree that Ebner is the most likely to be STO.

 

[Miguel]

FYI - Slater played in 276 snaps last year - 254 of which were on special teams. Slater participated in 1.8% of offensive snaps and on 51.9% of special teams snaps. Ebner played in 330 snaps last year - 325 of which were on special teams. Ebner participated in 0.4% of defensive snaps and on 66.5% of special teams snaps. White played in 329 snaps last year - 328 of which were on special teams. White participated in 0.1% of defensive snaps and on 67.1% of special teams snaps

 

[Brady6]

Outside of Aiken, Gostkowski, and Allen we do not really have any players that are special teams only. Slater is used as a blocker in goal line situations; Ebner is sometimes used as a hybrid safety/linebacker, White as a depth linebacker. Given that Gostkowski only had 32 kicks returned last year and Allen only had 29 punts returned against him last season for a total of 61 returns over 16 games, which breaks down to 3.81 returns per game, I do not see any player making this team based solely on his ability for less than 4 plays per game.

 

[Ring 6]

Outside of Aiken, Gostkowski, and Allen we do not really have any players that are special teams only. Slater is used as a blocker in goal line situations; Ebner is sometimes used as a hybrid safety/linebacker, White as a depth linebacker. Given that Gostkowski only had 32 kicks returned last year and Allen only had 29 punts returned against him last season for a total of 61 returns over 16 games, which breaks down to 3.81 returns per game, I do not see any player making this team based solely on his ability for less than 4 plays per game.

Ebner made the team to play 5 snaps of defense (probably in garbage time)?
White made the team to play 1 snap on defense , not 328 on special teams?
Slaters 22 garbage time snaps at WR were the reason the special teams captain was here?
This does not compute.

By the way we also have KR, PR, FG and FGD and of course you are ignoring the punts that were fair caught because of good coverage, or downed.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Every year poster say that we will not have any SPECIAL TEAMS ONLY PLAYERS. Some unhappily suggested the ONE exception for Slater.
===============================
Which players do you hope never to see out on the field, expect for special teams play, and perhaps for a few garbage time plays at the end of a game.

I have at FOUR on my list: Slater, White, Ebner and Davis.
============================

Chung is on that list for me, although I suspect that that isn't how the Pats plan to use him. Anytime Chung is on the field as a safety, I'll be terrified. Of all the safeties in the NFL, he might be the single worst in coverage.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Outside of Aiken, Gostkowski, and Allen we do not really have any players that are special teams only. Slater is used as a blocker in goal line situations; Ebner is sometimes used as a hybrid safety/linebacker, White as a depth linebacker. Given that Gostkowski only had 32 kicks returned last year and Allen only had 29 punts returned against him last season for a total of 61 returns over 16 games, which breaks down to 3.81 returns per game, I do not see any player making this team based solely on his ability for less than 4 plays per game.

Why do you think so few punts were returned? It's because the Pats' punt coverage is really, really good. If you're wondering why Slater, in particular, is on the roster, that's where you should look first.

 

[Brady6]

Why do you think so few punts were returned? It's because the Pats' punt coverage is really, really good. If you're wondering why Slater, in particular, is on the roster, that's where you should look first.

Allen actually ranked toward the bottom of the league in punts that were fair caught. He did lead all punters in touchbacks however.

 

[Brady6]

Ebner made the team to play 5 snaps of defense (probably in garbage time)?
White made the team to play 1 snap on defense , not 328 on special teams?
Slaters 22 garbage time snaps at WR were the reason the special teams captain was here?
This does not compute.

Did I say that? I said no player would make the team just for special teams, they have to offer some other value at least if needed depth. There primary purpose is special teams, but they are not “only” special teams.

By the way we also have KR, PR, FG and FGD and of course you are ignoring the punts that were fair caught because of good coverage, or downed.

Allen ranked #26 in the NFL in punts fair caught with 13.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Allen actually ranked toward the bottom of the league in punts that were fair caught. He did lead all punters in touchbacks however.

Maybe I'm just missing your point, because I'm not really sure how this points to what you seem to be arguing. Let me try again.

The Patriots have had a top-10 punting DVOA every year since 2009:

2013: 5th
2012: 10th (and I'd wager that Belichick blamed the punter, since he replaced him the following year)
2011: 2nd
2010: 8th
2009: 6th

In this time, the Patriots have never had a punter that I would consider significantly better than average. Hanson sucked, Mesko was okay for a while then he sucked, and Allen is generally adequate.

So why do the Pats consistently rank so well in punt coverage? Because their punt coverage team is really, really good. Starting with Slater, who is by far the biggest piece of that puzzle.

What you seem to be saying is that it isn't worth keeping ST specialists around because opposing punt returns aren't having a major impact on the game. The clear response to that, IMO, is that opposing punt returns aren't having a major affect on the game because these guys are doing their jobs so well. It's flawed reasoning for all the same reasons why you'd never say a CB or safety sucks because he never gets thrown at. Actually, some people here do argue that, but at least we generally understand that their opinions aren't worth considering.

This whole premise just sounds like circular logic to me: a strict evaluation of context-less numbers without sufficient consideration for what those numbers mean and why they are what they are. Either that or I've totally misread your point and I'm arguing against a straw man, which is definitely possible.

 

[Ring 6]

Did I say that? I said no player would make the team just for special teams, they have to offer some other value at least if needed depth. There primary purpose is special teams, but they are not “only” special teams.

Do you ever think to say something like "Wow, he only played 1 play (or 5) on defense all year at a position where we had injuries, so yeah, I guess I was wrong and we do have guys that really are only here for special teams?"

 

[BradyFTW!]

I said no player would make the team just for special teams, they have to offer some other value at least if needed depth. There primary purpose is special teams, but they are not “only” special teams.

And that's simply not true. As long as Matt Slater is on the team, it will never be true. Slater was so valuable that they didn't IR him last year even when roster spots were at a premium during the injury apocalypse and he had to miss 4 weeks with a broken wrist.

Why do you think the Pats place such value on him? Because of his special teams abilities--where he's a captain--or because of his 1 career reception at WR?

 

[Brady6]

Do you ever think to say something like "Wow, he only played 1 play (or 5) on defense all year at a position where we had injuries, so yeah, I guess I was wrong and we do have guys that really are only here for special teams?"

I admit when I am wrong. I think you misunderstood the premise of my first post. It was to star we look for players that can contribute if needed in other areas, their primary purpose is of course ST but that is not their only purpose.

 

[mgteich]

I will again state what seems to be a very controversial statement. Belichick has almost always kept 2-4 (or more) players on the 53 whose position was SPECIAL TEAMS, in a addition to the 3 specialists. Every year, posters want to cut the number to 0-1.

SPECIAL TEAMS is important to Belichick, perhaps more so than to other coaches.

THREE REGULAR SPECIAL TEAMERS
This year, Belichick brought back Slater, Ebner and White. Yes, Slater is an occasional blocker, but he is here because he is one of the best special teamers in the league. He is not being paid to be a blocker, or to be a WR.

TWO MORE (last year we labelled them linebackers)
Obviously, all our backup safeties are expected to play special teams. That will be their primary contribution. None of them would be here if they weren't considered pretty good special teamers. IMHO, we have two "extra" safeties who are here to be special teamers. After all, we carried 7 LB's last year. In essence, these are special teams positions. I do acknowledge that we don't know which of our safeties is expected to actually play safety.

 

[Ring 6]

I admit when I am wrong. I think you misunderstood the premise of my first post. It was to star we look for players that can contribute if needed in other areas, their primary purpose is of course ST but that is not their only purpose.

You have it backwards, evidently because there is something you said in the past you don't want to admit you are wrong about.
They are only on the team for special teams. Since they also would play a position if everyone on the roster were injured, they are called that too.

 

[mgteich]

I admit when I am wrong. I think you misunderstood the premise of my first post. It was to star we look for players that can contribute if needed in other areas, their primary purpose is of course ST but that is not their only purpose.

So, in 2013, White was a top special teamer with the additional "job" of being the #7 LB, who played one rep at that position all year.

So, in 2013, Ebner was a top special teamer with the additional "job" of coming out on the field for 5 reps of garbage time all year.

Curiously, I agree that Slater was indeed used for some reps in the goal-line offense (about 1 rep a game). However, he this was a bonus. He was not paid his very large ST salary to be a blocker. Belichick did not hire him to be anything but a Special Teamer.
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In addition, there are hybrid players/positions. For example, our #5 CB, #3 S and #4 S are expected to play lots of special teams, otherwise they wouldn't be on the team, unless they were top developmental prospects. There is a great deal of discussion if there is a variance from this. For example, most posters expected Gregory to start or not make the team last year. We don't pay #3 safeties who don't play special teams. Obviously, sometimes exceptions are made. Of course, Gregory was indeed our starter.