Source: Brady's testimony "not entirely credible"

[RayClay]

Also, the evidence was discovered only after the erroneous measurements were leaked, so the crime was invented, then a fishing expedition went on until evidence for the crime that never existed was found.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Why would it be a waste of $5,000,000 if the investigation resulted in proving the Patriots did nothing wrong? $5mill was spent to investigate not to create charges.
Why would it justify spending $5,000,000 to accept a bad conclusion and incorrectly suspend the face of your league?

It's backwards. The money is well spend if it clears the GOAT, and a waste if it finds him guilty of something he did not do.

We completely agree that that "Patriots did nothing wrong" and Brady as well.

But whether or not the money was spent to do so, the report not only resulted in the creation of "charges" it also specifically claims to have proven that "it is more probable than not" that both the Pats and Brady were in the wrong. There is no way in which it can be twisted into a report that "clears the GOAT."

So, in order to exonerate Brady, Goodell would have to toss the report and its $5,000,000 worth of "investigations." My point was that he won't do that because it would be too damning of him, his staff and the entire process that he set in motion.

 

[DarrylS]

An average viewer might think that after its disastrous leaks to Kravitz, Mort and King that they might do a better job of controlling the outflow of information.. however the lesson has not been learned, and they will continue to do business as usual.. sooner or later, what goes around comes around.

 

[Soul_Survivor88]

An average viewer might think that after its disastrous leaks to Kravitz, Mort and King that they might do a better job of controlling the outflow of information.. however the lesson has not been learned, and they will continue to do business as usual.. sooner or later, what goes around comes around.

that's why you should sign the petition - so that what comes around happens sooner rather than later

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

 

[everlong]

Source: Roger Goodell and NFL Offices not credible at all.

 

[JMC00]

Wonder which jests fanboy in the NFL this came from, i'd say either aiello or kensil.

 

[Ring 6]

We completely agree that that "Patriots did nothing wrong" and Brady as well.

But whether or not the money was spent to do so, the report not only resulted in the creation of "charges" it also specifically claims to have proven that "it is more probable than not" that both the Pats and Brady were in the wrong. There is no way in which it can be twisted into a report that "clears the GOAT."

So, in order to exonerate Brady, Goodell would have to toss the report and its $5,000,000 worth of "investigations." My point was that he won't do that because it would be too damning of him, his staff and the entire process that he set in motion.

I disagree with this line of thinking.
Step back for a minute and forget it is Goodell.
This would be the process.
1) Accusation
2) Initial concern of possible violation
3) Decide to hire independent investigator to INVESTIGATE (note that the investigator is not there to determine a conclusion but uncover facts)
4) Accept the report, because you hired an investigator you trust
5) Allow counterargument
6) DRAW YOUR OWN CONCLUSION

The Wells report is not useless if you reject the conclusion. Wells was there to investigate and uncover facts. The judgment of what those facts mean should not be in Wells hands, but in the Commissioners. For example, Wells doubting that the explanations for the texts were not plausible is nothing more than an opinion for the Commissioner to take into account.
Given only the Wells report to use to determine punishment, as well as guilt, the initial decision makes sense because Goodell chose to defer to Wells conclusions. Now that Brady has given his side of the story, Goodell's true responsibility is to weigh both sides, and really determine whether Wells' conclusion is right or wrong.

Goodell doesn't 'toss the report' he uses it as a piece of the puzzle. He uses the investigation, and draws his own conclusion.
While Wells may feel distrusting the explanations for texts is a valid reason to conclude Brady's more likely than not guilt, Goodell is not obligated to view the evidence the same way Wells does, particularly after hearing the Brady rebuttal, which was not available to him at the point he made the decision.

I think people are looking at this like Goodell is out to screw the Patriots, so facts be damned, but I don't buy that. Surely Goodell cares about self-preservation, but this idea that everyone will like him if he screws the Patriots for doing nothing wrong and hate him for being man enough to stop the insanity is crazy to me.

The one thing that does trouble me regarding this is that it gets in the way of the owners having domination over the players. If a player does something wrong, and the league can crucify them, you take away a little of that power by showing the weakness of giving in to the player. In that regard, I could see Goodell taking the position that he will not be the one to give rights to the enemy and must force it to court, although I think he is smart enough to know he stands to lose even more in court.

 

[Silver Blue&Red]

Maybe he did tell the deflators to lower the psi in the game balls. We don't have any evidence to prove he didn't.

Your an idiot. Knock it off already. Your act is old

 

[PatsFanSince74]

I disagree with this line of thinking.
Step back for a minute and forget it is Goodell.
This would be the process.
1) Accusation
2) Initial concern of possible violation
3) Decide to hire independent investigator to INVESTIGATE (note that the investigator is not there to determine a conclusion but uncover facts)
4) Accept the report, because you hired an investigator you trust
5) Allow counterargument
6) DRAW YOUR OWN CONCLUSION

The Wells report is not useless if you reject the conclusion. Wells was there to investigate and uncover facts. The judgment of what those facts mean should not be in Wells hands, but in the Commissioners. For example, Wells doubting that the explanations for the texts were not plausible is nothing more than an opinion for the Commissioner to take into account.
Given only the Wells report to use to determine punishment, as well as guilt, the initial decision makes sense because Goodell chose to defer to Wells conclusions. Now that Brady has given his side of the story, Goodell's true responsibility is to weigh both sides, and really determine whether Wells' conclusion is right or wrong.

Goodell doesn't 'toss the report' he uses it as a piece of the puzzle. He uses the investigation, and draws his own conclusion.
While Wells may feel distrusting the explanations for texts is a valid reason to conclude Brady's more likely than not guilt, Goodell is not obligated to view the evidence the same way Wells does, particularly after hearing the Brady rebuttal, which was not available to him at the point he made the decision.

I think people are looking at this like Goodell is out to screw the Patriots, so facts be damned, but I don't buy that. Surely Goodell cares about self-preservation, but this idea that everyone will like him if he screws the Patriots for doing nothing wrong and hate him for being man enough to stop the insanity is crazy to me.

The one thing that does trouble me regarding this is that it gets in the way of the owners having domination over the players. If a player does something wrong, and the league can crucify them, you take away a little of that power by showing the weakness of giving in to the player. In that regard, I could see Goodell taking the position that he will not be the one to give rights to the enemy and must force it to court, although I think he is smart enough to know he stands to lose even more in court.

From your lips to God's ears, Andy, but I think it's impossible to "forget it is Goodell."

Your six steps are the correct and rational way for this to proceed. I guess where we disagree is as to whether there are any serious indications that this has ever been intended to be or will play out to be a "correct and rational" process.

I think Goodell has boxed himself into a corner, even if he knows it could mean facing the risk that he will "lose even more in court."

And, whether or not it's where he started out, yes, I think Goodell is now in a position where indeed he has "to screw the Patriots...facts be damned." As I said in my OP, for him to do otherwise would, as even Gary Myers acknowledges in this morning's NY Daily News, require that he admit the $5 million was money down the drain and that he infuriate the forces in New York and across the League who want the Patriots' heads on platters.

But, I truly hope you are right and that I am wrong!!!

EDIT: right after I wrote this, I saw that Ian had put it much better in his article this morning, which is the subject of another thread:
http://www.patsfans.com/ian/blog/20...ainst-the-nfl-a-fight-he-can-even-win/?sc=rss

 

[Ring 6]

From your lips to God's ears, Andy, but I think it's impossible to "forget it is Goodell."

Your six steps are the correct and rational way for this to proceed. I guess where we disagree is as to whether there are any serious indications that this has ever been intended to be or will play out to be a "correct and rational" process.

I think Goodell has boxed himself into a corner, even if he knows it could mean facing the risk that he will "lose even more in court."

And, whether or not it's where he started out, yes, I think Goodell is now in a position where indeed he has "to screw the Patriots...facts be damned." As I said in my OP, for him to do otherwise would, as even Gary Myers acknowledges in this morning's NY Daily News, require that he admit the $5 million was money down the drain and that he infuriate the forces in New York and across the League who want the Patriots' heads on platters.

But, I truly hope you are right and that I am wrong!!!

Again, I know this is a Goodell-hating Patriot consensus view, but $5,000,000 is NOTHING to the owners.
Additionally, why in the world is it bad for Goodell to accept that Wells did a bad job?
What is worse for the NFL? Our Great Player of All Time is a cheater, or we hired an investigator and don't agree with his conclusions after further review.

Goodell is not going to lose his job because he decides Wells did a bad job. It's ridiculous to think that hiring an investigator means you are an embarrassment if other facts make you conclude he is wrong.

This 'forces who want the Patriots heads on a platter' is the kind of stuff I find silly.
Who exactly is Goodell beholden to or subservient to that is forcing him to find Tom Brady guilty of something he didn't do?

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Again, I know this is a Goodell-hating Patriot consensus view, but $5,000,000 is NOTHING to the owners.
Additionally, why in the world is it bad for Goodell to accept that Wells did a bad job?
What is worse for the NFL? Our Great Player of All Time is a cheater, or we hired an investigator and don't agree with his conclusions after further review.

Goodell is not going to lose his job because he decides Wells did a bad job. It's ridiculous to think that hiring an investigator means you are an embarrassment if other facts make you conclude he is wrong.

This 'forces who want the Patriots heads on a platter' is the kind of stuff I find silly.
Who exactly is Goodell beholden to or subservient to that is forcing him to find Tom Brady guilty of something he didn't do?

I added an EDIT after my post. It was a reference to Ian's article this morning that is the subject of another thread and that states what I was trying to say much more extensively and well.

http://www.patsfans.com/ian/blog/20...ainst-the-nfl-a-fight-he-can-even-win/?sc=rss

 

[Ring 6]

I added an EDIT after my post. It was a reference to Ian's article this morning that is the subject of another thread and that states what I was trying to say much more extensively and well.

http://www.patsfans.com/ian/blog/20...ainst-the-nfl-a-fight-he-can-even-win/?sc=rss

Ian's speculation is exactly what I disagree with.
I strenuously disagree that $5,000,000 was wasted if the report is used as an evidence gathering exercise (which it is supposed to be) then held up to scrutiny and an independent decision taking both sides into account is made. $5,000,000 was not paid so Wells could make Goodell's decision for him, it was paid to investigate.
Secondly, I do not believe that anyone is going to fire Roger Goodell for assessing the facts and concluding that Wells was off the mark, and the evidence supplied by Brady is credible and overcomes the slim 'generally aware of what more probably than not could have happened' burden of proof.
I just do not buy that owners paying him 40,000,000 a year will fire him because his 5,000,000 investigation included a wrong conclusion, or because he believes (correctly so) that Brady is innocent and decides any punishment is unjust.

For some reason people have reached the bizarre conclusion that Goodell has gotten things wrong before so the only way he can save face is get this one even more wrong.

Now this does not mean that Goodell possesses the judgment, intelligence and understanding to know what the facts are truly telling him, but assuming he does, his only move is to abolish the punishment of Brady.

 

[signbabybrady]

Again, I know this is a Goodell-hating Patriot consensus view, but $5,000,000 is NOTHING to the owners.
Additionally, why in the world is it bad for Goodell to accept that Wells did a bad job?
What is worse for the NFL? Our Great Player of All Time is a cheater, or we hired an investigator and don't agree with his conclusions after further review.

Goodell is not going to lose his job because he decides Wells did a bad job. It's ridiculous to think that hiring an investigator means you are an embarrassment if other facts make you conclude he is wrong.

This 'forces who want the Patriots heads on a platter' is the kind of stuff I find silly.
Who exactly is Goodell beholden to or subservient to that is forcing him to find Tom Brady guilty of something he didn't do?

The common answer is the Jets. But is it so far fetched to think it could be any of these rich men or a group of them that hired and can fire him from a $40 mil a year job?

 

[Ring 6]

The common answer is the Jets. But is it so far fetched to think it could be any of these rich men or a group of them that hired and can fire him from a $40 mil a year job?

So you think that owners are telling Goodell that he needs to make something up to screw the Patriots or he is fired? Really?

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Ian's speculation is exactly what I disagree with.
I strenuously disagree that $5,000,000 was wasted if the report is used as an evidence gathering exercise (which it is supposed to be) then held up to scrutiny and an independent decision taking both sides into account is made. $5,000,000 was not paid so Wells could make Goodell's decision for him, it was paid to investigate.
Secondly, I do not believe that anyone is going to fire Roger Goodell for assessing the facts and concluding that Wells was off the mark, and the evidence supplied by Brady is credible and overcomes the slim 'generally aware of what more probably than not could have happened' burden of proof.
I just do not buy that owners paying him 40,000,000 a year will fire him because his 5,000,000 investigation included a wrong conclusion, or because he believes (correctly so) that Brady is innocent and decides any punishment is unjust.

For some reason people have reached the bizarre conclusion that Goodell has gotten things wrong before so the only way he can save face is get this one even more wrong.

Now this does not mean that Goodell possesses the judgment, intelligence and understanding to know what the facts are truly telling him, but assuming he does, his only move is to abolish the punishment of Brady.

As I said at the top of my post two responses ago, "From your lips to God's ears."
I sincerely, for the sake of the Patriots and, really, the integrity of the League, hope that you are right and that I and others are wrong.
Thanks.

 

[Dr Pain]

The common answer is the Jets. But is it so far fetched to think it could be any of these rich men or a group of them that hired and can fire him from a $40 mil a year job?

$5M is like a months salary for Roger and the Wells report was like a months work so in his world this all makes sense.

 

[signbabybrady]

So you think that owners are telling Goodell that he needs to make something up to screw the Patriots or he is fired? Really?

It would certainly explain how we got to where we are now.

From the jump nothing in this story makes sense. But if you assume some jealous owners concocted it then it makes a little sense.

Why test balls at halftime when it's never been done before?

Why launch an investigation over something you have fined teams for similar behavior?

Why ignore basic science in favor of out of context texts?

Why leak wrong information?

Why not correct the mid-information?

Why not assign a neutral arbiter?

Just a few of the many questions that don't make sense.

Alot of these questions don't seem so strange if you assume someone is out to get us? But how could nothing go our way if this is truly fair and balanced?

 

[Ring 6]

It would certainly explain how we got to where we are now.

This is my problem with a lot of this, people make up an answer and then act as if since it fits somewhat, it must be the only possibility. There are more logical answers to all the questions than an oddball conspiracy theory.

From the jump nothing in this story makes sense. But if you assume some jealous owners concocted it then it makes a little sense.

no it doesn't because there is no reason or justification for owners to railroad a team.

Why test balls at halftime when it's never been done before?

Because the Colts brought the intercepted ball to them and it was under 12.5

Why launch an investigation over something you have fined teams for similar behavior?

In order to find out if it was an abject attempt to circumvent the rules. If the balls were at 10.8 and science said they should be at 11.8 then the investigation would be necessary.

Why ignore basic science in favor of out of context texts?

Wells didn't ignore the science, he contracted a company that did a bad job with it, and convinced him the science implied tampering.

Why leak wrong information?

Wrong information is leaked all the time, not correcting it was the gaffe. It doesn't take a conspiracy to understand that they didn't want to tip off the team they felt was guilty. The owners didn't do that, Mike Gardi did it.

Why not correct the mid-information?

See above.

Why not assign a neutral arbiter?

They attempted to do that with Wells. The fact that he sucked does not indicate a conspiracy by owners to screw the Pats.

Just a few of the many questions that don't make sense.

No one is saying they did a good job with this, just that its silly to say other owners conspired ot screw the Patriots.

Alot of these questions don't seem so strange if you assume someone is out to get us?

Paranoid comments usually indicate paranoid thinking.

But how could nothing go our way if this is truly fair and balanced?

First, it isn't over yet.
Wells sucks. But its ridiculous to assume that an organization who hired him to investigate would be skeptical of his report before it was challenged. Brady has challenged. Only in Assumptionville where people have already decided that Goodell will ignore the appeal and its obvious proof that Wells got it wrong, has this also gone against the Patriots.
Wells IMO decided there was guilt early on, and set out to prove it. When you take that approach you give guilt the benefit of the doubt and consider claims of innocent to not be credible. It doesn't even have to be intentional.

We will see what happens, but if Goodell does not overturn the suspension it won't be because he is afraid to spend $5 million dollars, or that someone is telling him to screw the Patriots even though they did nothing wrong, it will be because he is very bad at this stuff, and really will believe he got it right.
Then it is up to the courts to fix it.

 

[Patstopia]

I disagree with this line of thinking.
Step back for a minute and forget it is Goodell.
This would be the process.
1) Accusation
2) Initial concern of possible violation
3) Decide to hire independent investigator to INVESTIGATE (note that the investigator is not there to determine a conclusion but uncover facts)
4) Accept the report, because you hired an investigator you trust
5) Allow counterargument
6) DRAW YOUR OWN CONCLUSION

I have to disagree on the steps of this process. If Tag or Roselle were running the NFL it would be;
1) Accusation
2) Warning letter i.e. "Heres the accusation, if this is happening, knock it off!"
3) End of story

It would never ever come down to turning the Championship game and the Super Bowl into a WWE event. It was an easily avoided situation which the league INTENTIONALLY caused!