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Something I'm still trying to understand

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by O.Z.O., Sep 12, 2008.

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  1. O.Z.O.

    O.Z.O. Practice Squad Player

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    I'm watching Mike and Mike on the Duece this morning (part of mine and Zod Jr.'s morning routine), and they're talking about the differences between Aaron Rodgers and Cassel.

    Now, I realize that Greenberg is a complete and total Jets loving tool, and the next time he has a clue will be the first time, but I usually place a lot more stock in what Golic says, especially when they talk about football.

    This morning, the storyline was once again how Rodgers was a starter in college and Cassel was a backup (granted, he was backing up Matt Leinart in the country's premiere program and running a pro-style offense). Here's where this starts to bother me-

    Cassel was recruited by USC. USC isn't going to recruit Joe Blow from Unity HS in Maine. We don't know what he did in HS, but you have to figure he was a pretty damn good ball player.

    Should Cassel be faulted for electing to stay at USC and play behind Leinart rather then transfer to some putz school and run the option? Let's say he goes to a Division II school and dominates, running a college offense...where is that going to land him in the draft?

    The one thing I would have been willing to give here in this comparison is the one thing that WASN'T brought up- Green Bay went into training camp KNOWING that Rodgers was there guy. They were able to spend that time building the offense around him. That's a big plus. Obviously, the Pats went into training camp hoping that the only time Cassel would see the field was in garbage time.

    I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't the Pats had pretty good success prior to this year with a guy who split playing time and backed up a big name guy at a big time program?
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2008
  2. SammyBlueCat

    SammyBlueCat Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    Green Bay is not on our schedule this year. They must be grasping for straws to talk about.
     
  3. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Matt Cassel hasn't started a regular season game since 1999. Some people think that playing games actually helps improve one's skill set.

    Cassel backed up Heisman trophy winners at USC (with Chow as coach) and Brady in the NFL. I would argue that he may be qualified to be the Assistant Quarterback Coach.

    He MAY do fine at QB. But he hasn't actually played the position since High School.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2008
  4. BelizePats

    BelizePats Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    Rodgers was a starter in college and a number 1 pick so there is some merit to it.
    But, none of us really know what to expect. We may think we do but until the guy has started some games on the road, in noisy, hostile environments, all we can do is speculate.
    This is why the Jets game is so perfect. Farve first game in New York, heated division rivalry, and a full week to prepare for the Jets.
    This weeks game will tell us quite a bit about Mr Cassel.
     
  5. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Yes, this is a test for Cassel. We've played one of the bottom 5 teams in football. Now we are playing a team in 6-10 range. The jets really aren't very good.
     
  6. O.Z.O.

    O.Z.O. Practice Squad Player

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    Being a starter in college and first round pick really doesn't mean much.

    Ryan Leaf was a #1 pick.

    Heath Shuler was a #1 pick.

    Todd Marinovich was a #1 pick.

    Patrick Ramsey was a #1 pick.

    Andre Ware was a #1 pick.

    Akili Smith was a #1 pick.

    David Klingler was a #1 pick.

    ...I can keep going with this, but I think you get my point.
     
  7. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You can keep going, but this is not much of a barometer.. a better comparison is trying to find a site that details QB's who did not play during college, but now play successfully in the NFL... otoh think BB would do something different if he did not think Cassell could do the job..
     
  8. PatsFaninAZ

    PatsFaninAZ In the Starting Line-Up

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    I think that's right, but I think all Cassel starting means is that BB thinks he is a better option than any other available option right now. BB says he views his job as picking the option that gives the best team to win. But we really don't know anything about his math.

    If he feels Cassel gives him a 20 percent chance, while Simms a 19 percent chance, then he'll go with Cassel. (Using silly numbers to make the point.) But I read this board and everyone seems to be of the opinion that BB is expressing some massive confidence in Cassel so he must be good. Maybe. Or maybe BB just thinks the alternatives stink much worse.

    I'm interested to see how Cassel does and I hope it's great. But he's as unproven as can be. Bottom line to me, all this talk about Cassel is sort of besides the point. Defense and turnovers will, like 80 percent of the games in the national parity league, decide this game. If the defense can hold the Jets in the 40 percent range on 3d down conversions, and if we can win or tie in the takeaway department, we will probably win.
     
  9. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    So, I suggest that we trade away all of our first day picks and plan to get our starters from the late rounds and from UDFA's.

    Rogers is MORE likely to succeed because he was judged a first rounder than someone who is a 7th round pick. Of course, you can present the argument of how stupid all the other GM's are and how much Cassel has shown himself to be as good a prospect as the first and second rounders by virtue of him sitting on the bench for three years for the patriots. He already did that for 4 years under one pf the best QB coaches ever.

     
  10. O.Z.O.

    O.Z.O. Practice Squad Player

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    I agree, but with your initial statement you miss the entire point of my list. The poster I responded to says the difference between Cassel and Rodgers is that Rodgers was a starter and a #1 pick. The point of my list was to show just how little that means. Brady played behind Drew henson, who, had he elected to play football straight out of college, would have been a #1 pick as well. The leap from the NCAA to the NFL is huge, and it takes a lot more then athletic ability to make it. I'm betting there were fans in 2000 that were wondering why BB was hanging on to a 6th round pick at backup QB rather then looking for Bledsoe's successor. The jury is still out on Rodgers, as far as I'm concerned. The Vikings have had a LOUSY pass defense the last couple years.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2008
  11. TheGodInAGreyHoodie

    TheGodInAGreyHoodie Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    No but they have several huge things in common.

    They both are taking over for first round HOF ballot QBs. Neither fan base is particularly thrilled that are the starting QB, Both are multi-year back ups. Both are QBs in very successful programs that went to the post season last year.
     
  12. emoney_33

    emoney_33 Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    He's felt that way for 2 years now.
     
  13. JAYHAWKS34

    JAYHAWKS34 Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    That is probably what the rest of the world thinks about Bill Simmons, you have your hometown bias I respect that
     
  14. AzPatsFan

    AzPatsFan Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    I am throughly tired of the "he hasn't started a game since HS".

    It takes a very unusual guy to be drafted by the pros, after sitting in college. But Matt Cassell was a prized recruit by the biggest of big time college programs.

    He has size,a big arm, a high wonderlic. and 8 years of training in pro programs. including coaching by Norm Chow, Pete Carroll, Bill Belichick, and Josh McDaniels. He has played with Tom Brady, Carson Palmer, Matt Lienart and thrown to receivers like Randy Moss.

    As for not playing, he has appeared in three pro games that I recall, and probaly 15 or so preseason games. He brought the Pats back after the Pats had conceeded a victory to Miami. He led the Offense that scored all the points against the Chiefs.

    He knows the Offense and directs it, unlike a rookie. He is at least as accomplished as the average backup, but with a substantially higher upside, having starting QB athletic talent, looking at it as a pure football scout.

    Will he win this weekend, on the road? It is uncertain; but 5-10 games from now he WILL LIKELY be a feared and respected backup QB in the NFL.

    Enough. He is not a raw rookie.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2008
  15. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Disable Jersey

    All you point out may be true, but he still hasn't started a game since high school.
     
  16. upstater1

    upstater1 Pro Bowl Player

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    Just as an FYI, Brady never played behind Henson. Brady was the starter, and Henson came in an played the 2nd quarter. That's it.

    You see the same thing at Ohio State this year. I happen to think their senior QB is a pretty good one, but they are mixing in Terrelle Pryor, a freshman.

    It's the same exact situation.
     
  17. O.Z.O.

    O.Z.O. Practice Squad Player

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    True, but Greenberg goes beyond that. I listen to this yutz every morning and it's a rare day when I don't feel like putting my foot through the TV screen when he speaks.

    Maybe it's just me, but I look for a little more objectivity from guys in that position.
     
  18. rusH1023

    rusH1023 Practice Squad Player

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    True:

    The largest of the tall tales out there is the Brady-Henson myth. First, Tom Brady started EVERY SINGLE MICHIGAN GAME IN 1998 AND 1999. Period. Drew Henson finished his career with 8 starts, all in 2000. Henson played sparingly in 1998, and his only significant time was in the Syracuse game.

    The notion that Henson was the team favorite is a myth as well. There was 1 leader of that team, and it was the captain, Tom Brady. Brady was every bit as clutch as he is now, and he had the respect and admiration of everyone in that room for the way he handled his situation.

    http://michiganagainsttheworld.blogspot.com/2006/11/more-tom-brady-myths.html
     
  19. O.Z.O.

    O.Z.O. Practice Squad Player

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    I wonder why the myth has been allowed to perpetuate itself. Does it just sound better that way? I admit that I'm guilty of not knowing this, which, considering that I'm usually really good about researching something before I post, makes me feel like an ass now.:(
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2008
  20. neuronet

    neuronet In the Starting Line-Up

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    In many ways, we got lucky with the timing of the injury. Imagine if it happened before one of our big away games in Indy or SD? This way we get to build him up a bit, see what he's made of with the "softer" NFL teams in the first three weeks, and then we get a bye week! It couldn't have been much better timed for the team. Yes, it sucks that Brady is out, I'm not suggesting otherwise, but our first three opponents should be wins even without Brady.
     
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