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Someone: Make The Case For McKenzie

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by mgteich, Aug 26, 2010.

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  1. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    SOMEONE MAKE THE CASE FOR MCKENZIE
    And, please use some other argument than he hasn't been given a chance. We have three young solid ILBs signed at least through 2011. Mayo on one side and Guyton and Spikes splitting the other.

    The #4 ILB gets almost no reps. In 2009, even with the injury to Mayo, the #3 ILB was included on 12% of defensive reps, the #4 on less than 1% of the defensive reps.

    This year we expect MORE reps from Mayo, and for Spikes and Guyton to split the reps on the other side. This leaves the same 1% or less for the #4.

    So, what good is a #4 ILB at all. The #4 ILB spot has been used for years as a label for a top special teamer: for Davis, for Izzo and for Alexander.
    ==================
    In what way is McKenzie and upgrade over Alexander?

    I admit to ahving McKenzie on my roster. Reiss put him back after receiving such abuse after excluding him last week.
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2010
  2. BradyFTW!

    BradyFTW! PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    1) Guyton's skill-set is very limited. He's ideally a passing-down specialist, and McKenzie, who's pretty much the opposite, is a good compliment to that. As of now, none of our DEs command a double team, which makes it all the more necessary that our ILBs be able to take on guards straight-up. Guyton can't do that effectively, which makes him even more of a liability on non-passing downs. I wouldn't be surprised if the Pats keep McKenzie just to make sure that Guyton isn't rotating onto the field on running downs.

    2) Injury insurance: he ensures that Mayo will not be forced into the regular SILB role, and that Guyton won't have to become an every-down ILB by necessity. In the event that Spikes is injured or hits the rookie wall, or anything like that, his presence on the team improves both ILB positions.

    Is that worth a roster spot? I think so, although I can see the other side of the debate. either way, I see those reasons as being why he makes the team.
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2010
  3. robertweathers

    robertweathers Rookie

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    I love the kid but Reiss said it best. He hasn't been eye-popping on the field and has been a no-show on special teams.

    Thats not good.
  4. JSn

    JSn Rookie

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    Potentially very solid depth, ie: if someone gets hurt, we still have a good 3-man rotation.

    That said, I don't dislike Alexander and think he's ok for a stop-gap at ILB if he's rotational.

    I dunno, it's a tough call to make. I guess the only thing might be potential and the fact he'll almost definitely get picked up and might be great. Lotsa maybes there, though.

    I guess he just has untapped potential. We already know what Alexander is will always be.
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2010
  5. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    He has far more upside than Guyton IMO. His reps have been limited due to the number of reps givento Spikes (as a rookie who will be starting this is a good thing. When given the opportunity he has done some good things in the preseason games (haven't seen him in practice). Made tackles when the ball run to his side, what stood out to me (have to review the snaps against Atl) he had 2 passes defended.

    I don't think you get rid of a young player with his skills in the case of an injury to the top 3 I would much rather have him on the field than Alexander.
  6. KontradictioN

    KontradictioN Do you even lift? PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The bolded should end the debate. This way, Mayo stays where he belongs and Guyton doesn't have to see time on first and second down.
  7. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I think the illusion is that there are three everyday, every play ILB spots. There aren't. In 2009 Mayo and Guyton played every play when they were healthy. Seau played when Mayo was down. No one else (that is Alexander) played in more than 1% of the defensive reps.

    In 2008, Bruschi and Guyton essentially shared the spot opposite Mayo, with Guyton as a passing down specialist.
    ==========

    We all (including Belichick) thought that we could be upgraded by moving Guyton back to playing primarily on passing downs. The choice for the run-stopping ILB were Spikes and McKenzie. Spikes is our starter. McKenzie showed nothing.
    ================

    Backup ILB's should be top special teamers. Guyton certainly is one; besides he has shown that he is a reasonable option as a starter. The #4 ILB will get almost no reps at ILB, even if Mayo is injured (Guyton would just play more as he did last year). We don't need an injury backup for Spikes (Guyton would play more as he did last year). I suppose that we could us a backup for Guyton; but it seems we can just have Spikes play more.

    So, we know what Alexander adds in case of injury (almost zero). We know what he adds every day: a solid, actioe special teamer.

    What does McKenzie add in case of injury. I don't think he adds much. And he is NOT a top sepcial teamer.
  8. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    That ends the debate only if you would rather have McKenzie and Spikes starting instead of Guyton and Spikes.

    McKenzie has not shown the ability to be a starter. Guyton had done so.

    That is the debate. Apparently you are ready to start McKenzie it Mayo goes down again. I am not.

  9. patsox23

    patsox23 Rookie

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    Let's start (and end?) with this: regardless of his perceived value on S|Ts, Eric Alexander f-ing SUCKS at football. McKenzie is essentially a rookie, and is a guy who the team was said to be quite high on coming out last year. We're seriously letting him go this fast? No chance. And since when is 4 ILB enough for a 3-4 team?
  10. RayClay

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    I could find articles from three weeks ago saying how impressive McKenzie looked in camp. Now because they want Spikes to play, he's a has been.:rolleyes:

    Tough to be in show biz. Every player isn't getting a chance to shine and they aren't all going from impressive big hitter to washed up over a few weeks either.
  11. KontradictioN

    KontradictioN Do you even lift? PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Yeah, I am. He'd be better against the run than Guyton (who was a liability in that area at times) was. I'd love to have him and Guyton on the same roster. Guyton is a pretty good coverage ILB. In the event of injury, McKenzie would come in one first and second down as well as short yardage third downs, and Guyton would come in on passing downs. I don't see any reason why that couldn't work.
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2010
  12. patsox23

    patsox23 Rookie

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    Guyton started bc of injuries and lack of depth. Puh-lease.
  13. PATRIOTSFANINPA

    PATRIOTSFANINPA Rookie

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    McKenzie ain't going anywhere IMO

    This is a kid who was drafted decently high who had a devastating injury as a rookie - I would think that its uncommon and not likely Belichick drops a kid who has not played a meaningful down as a pro,especially where he was drafted...its not like he was a 7th rounder

    Come on,We kept a piece of sh!t like glassman Crable for 2 years of worthlessness,what makes one think BB drops McKenzie after 1 injury?
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2010
  14. JackBauer

    JackBauer Rookie

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    FWIW, Bruschi has been pretty high on Guyton. I'd expect Guyton to start over McKenzie, but I'd also like to keep Tyrone around for a bit because a.) I think he could be a good player and b.) Eric Alexander sux0rs.
  15. reflexblue

    reflexblue PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The kid is a third round pick with talent, bb is not going to cut a third round pick this quickly Look how long crable stuck around, I also dont understand the rush to get rid of this guy.
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2010
  16. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Is your position tha McKenzie is much better than Alexander on special teams, or just in the one series a year that he would likely play at ILB?

  17. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Crable would have beaten out Ninkovich in 2009 if he were healthy.

    Also, we badly needed and need young OLB's. With regard to ILB's, we have three young experienced players sharing two positions.

    Last edited: Aug 26, 2010
  18. JackBauer

    JackBauer Rookie

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    My position is that he's better ILB depth than Alexander.
  19. pdangle

    pdangle Rookie

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    What's the chance he's still not 100% due to his old injury. I mean, if he's "showing nothing" on special teams, it raise's the injury specter for me at least.

    I think he might have been a bit rusty, and didn't really know how tough was going to be compete if he wasn't 100%. Hopefully he is full-out now, as opposed to earlier in camp, and is just playing catch up. It's actually a good sign for our depth at ILB. If an injured 3rd rounder was taking reps from last year's starter and a higher round pick "natural" in a deep draft we'd be in trouble. He's about where he should be now that I think about it.

    Definitely someone to watch tonight vs. Rams. He's been tentative, but steady it seems by the reviews so far. Maybe he makes the jump. Still early in his career though.
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2010
  20. reflexblue

    reflexblue PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    McKenzie isn't going anywhere, BB was very impressed with him, he was doing very well in TC, i don't know why he ended up with the third and fourth unit when the pre-season games started. (Maybe BB knows what he has in Mckensie and want;s to evaluate other playerS at ILB) But he has great maturity and talent as a run stuffer, certainly better than Guyton.
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2010
  21. jmt57

    jmt57 Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I'm with Kontradiction (backup depth for Mayo) and patsox23 (better than Alexander) on this one.

    Perhaps we are assuming that just because Alexander got reps on special teams in the last preseason game and McKenzie did not, that McKenzie is incapable of producing on special teams. In my opinion he has far more upside than Alexander or Guyton - remember, he was a third round talent just a year ago. We may be putting too much stock into amount of playing time in one or two preseason games, and jumping to conclusions.

    Cutting him after one training camp seems to be a huge over reaction. Unless there is something Belichick knows about that we don't - that his injury was much more severe than we thought it was, or that even after a year and a half of sitting in on meetings he can't grasp the playbook and terminology - then I don't understand why people would want to let McKenzie go so quickly.

    As for the 'McKenzie hasn't proven anything, Guyton has' idea, with that reasoning we may as well let Chung, Butler, Brace, and every rookie go as well. Of course McKenzie hasn't 'proven' anything yet; he hasn't played a real NFL game yet.

    Perhaps BB is bring McKenzie along slowly due to the injury. Perhaps his playing time has nothing to do with his perceived status on the depth chart - just like BJGE is not the Pats starting RB. I don't know, time will tell, but to me it's far too early to write him off. I will say that I expected him to play a lot of special teams this year; we'll have to wait and see if that will actually happen. I'm not going to assume that he can't or won't do that because of two preseason games.
  22. KontradictioN

    KontradictioN Do you even lift? PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I think the real premise for the thread should be "make a case AGAINST McKenzie". There seems to be a pretty solid case for him.
  23. RayClay

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    McKenzie was on the KR team.

    Special teams breakdown - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

    They're trying to get Spikes ready to be the starter. McKenzie plays the same position. He's going to need to learn both positions while not playing much.
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2010
  24. jmt57

    jmt57 Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Thanks for the correction. I actually knew that, not sure why I said that. I guess what I meant to say was that he was not in on most special teams, playing on only one of the four units.

    The additional reps for Spikes makes a lot of sense as well. It also would stand to reason that they want Mayo playing together with Spikes so they can form some cohesiveness. So not only would Spikes' playing time cut into McKenzie's playing time, but the same would hold true with Mayo's playing time for McKenzie too.
  25. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    This will extremely valuable in the 4 or 5 plays a year when a 4th ILB is called up to play.

  26. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    This thread would have been a lot more timely had it been made after tonight's game, so some comparisons could be drawn from this offseason.
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2010
  27. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Yes, the case for McKenzie is strong indeed. He is a highly drafted player who is of no use in 2010 and will likely be inactive for the entire year.

    Yet in the end, I agree that there is room for two developmental players on the inactive roster, but only because they are unlikely to make it to the Practice Squad.

  28. SanAngeloState

    SanAngeloState Banned

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    Guyton is a very non-physical player IMO. He can't take on guards, takes himself out of plays, just isn't very good. He's kind of similar to Alexander in that regard.

    McKenzie, I think is just still learning the system, so there's hope for him. Guyton has already reached his ceiling. I still remember him going into the wrong hole during Ray Rice's run. I half think he was taking himself out of the play to avoid contact. He's monty Beisel 2.0.
  29. JackBauer

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    I didn't realize this was going to be so incredibly difficult for you to comprehend, but the value arises if/when one or more of the starters go down with injury.
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2010
  30. JackBauer

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    If I were to list the things that are wrong with this post, methinks it would be quite a lengthy list.
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2010
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